I will be happy to look into the Farmer's Market's claim that by leasing
the public sidewalk, the market can prohibit political activities.
Thanks to Mary Zanmiller for bringing this to our attention.
In Nov. 2002, I was part of a public demonstration at the Xcel Center.
Ramsey County Sheriff's deputies prohibited demonstrators from being on
the sidewalk directly in front of Xcel. When I checked with St. Paul
Police, they upheld the view I had of the city ordinance that political
activity cannot be prohibited from the public sidewalk. Police officers
allowed us to come across the street, march, and hold signs, despite the
directives of the Ramsey County Sheriff. Since that time, our office
(Ward 4, City Council) has put several groups in touch with the St. Paul
Police to clarify this policy before planned demonstrations. Deputy
Chief Dick Gardell has been a wonderful guardian of this city
ordinance.
It would be unfortunate to prohibit political candidates from engaging
the public at the Farmer's Market. No shopper is obligated to talk to
political candidates, but the market has always been a great informal
gathering place for community networking and discussion.
Jane Prince, Legislative Aide
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/04/04 08:21AM >>>
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Today's Topics:
1. Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market (Mary C. Zanmiller)
2. RE: Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market (Paul Gleeson)
3. RE: Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market
(Tom & Elsa Thompson)
4. Re: RE: Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
5. RE: Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market (Eric Mitchell)
6. RE: Public Space and the Farmers Market (Tom & Elsa Thompson)
7. RE: RE: Public Space and the Farmers Market (Guy Western)
8. Re: Re: District Council Overhaul ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
9. Re: Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:13:02 -0500
From: "Mary C. Zanmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [StPaul] Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I witnessed the worst of contemporary USA at the Saint Paul Farmers'
Market this morning (July 3, 2004). A Democratic National Committee
(DNC) worker was conversing with two people on the sidewalk along the
southwest corner of the Saint Paul Farmers' Market. As I walked by
the
market manager was telling the DNC worker that he could not talk to
people at the Market. I indignantly interfered and said, "He has a
right to speak with people." The Market manager replied, "No, he
doesn't, and customers are complaining." One of the people he was
speaking to said, "I am a customer and I want to talk with him." I
added, "On a public sidewalk he has a right to free speech." The
Market
manager replied, "The Market leases the sidewalk as well and he has to
leave." I replied, "The next time I see our Republican mayor speaking
to people at the Market I will find you and you will have to ask him
to
leave."
This is plain wrong. The people of Saint Paul paid for this market.
Hundred of thousands of public dollars was recently invested to
upgrade
this space. The people of Saint Paul generously support the market by
buying from the farmers selling their products. So in Saint Paul we
no longer honor the free speech that is guaranteed in the
constitution.
Many times I have seen Mayor Randy Kelly and Senator Norman Coleman
shaking hands as they campaign for their next great office. So some
people can campaign and others can't? Who gets to choose? Who sets
the
litmus test?
The Saint Paul Farmers' market is the commons if their ever was one.
How ironic that this happened the day before our observance of the
Declaration of Independence - the birth of democracy, with its'
guarantee of free speech.
You know it makes me want to sign up to be a DNC volunteer, I think I
will take the Northwest corner and the sun won't be in my eyes. If
any
readers know how I can join up; please contact me.
It is a time-honored tradition for the Saint Paul Farmers' Market to
be
a public space. What happened this morning is a "tragedy of the
commons." The Saint Paul Farmers' Market should honor free speech and
never, ever again kick people out that are engaged in our democratic
process.
Happy 4th of July.
Peace follows freedom and justice,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mary C. Zanmiller
West Seventh Neighborhood
Saint Paul, MN USA
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 18:38:56 -0500
From: "Paul Gleeson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [StPaul] Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market
To: "Mary C. Zanmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Mary,
I have watched clip-board-carrying, fresh-faced young people wearing
DNC
t-shirts accost pedestrians at the Grand and Victoria intersection. I
wonder........are they volunteers or do they receive compensation for
contributions collected? Do you know?
Greenpeace and other environmental organizations commonly employ
commissioned sales representatives to canvass neighborhoods in St.
Paul
selling memberships. For many of us, it's turned into a joke and,
frankly,
I feel sorry for the young idealists who take these jobs. Has the DNC
adopted this model?
As far as the Farmer's Market is concerned.........I see candidates
and/or
their volunteers there all the time during the two or three weekends
before
a primary or general election. I suspect there will be no change this
year.
Benanev was there a lot and nobody kicked him out.
Isn't Randy Kelly a Democrat? How many years in the legislature?
What's
this Republican stuff?
Enjoy the 4th.
Paul Gleeson
St. Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mary C. Zanmiller
Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 4:13 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [StPaul] Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market
I witnessed the worst of contemporary USA at the Saint Paul Farmers'
Market this morning (July 3, 2004). A Democratic National Committee
(DNC) worker was conversing with two people on the sidewalk along the
southwest corner of the Saint Paul Farmers' Market. As I walked by
the
market manager was telling the DNC worker that he could not talk to
people at the Market. I indignantly interfered and said, "He has a
right to speak with people." The Market manager replied, "No, he
doesn't, and customers are complaining." One of the people he was
speaking to said, "I am a customer and I want to talk with him." I
added, "On a public sidewalk he has a right to free speech." The
Market
manager replied, "The Market leases the sidewalk as well and he has to
leave." I replied, "The next time I see our Republican mayor speaking
to people at the Market I will find you and you will have to ask him
to
leave."
This is plain wrong. The people of Saint Paul paid for this market.
Hundred of thousands of public dollars was recently invested to
upgrade
this space. The people of Saint Paul generously support the market by
buying from the farmers selling their products. So in Saint Paul we
no longer honor the free speech that is guaranteed in the
constitution.
Many times I have seen Mayor Randy Kelly and Senator Norman Coleman
shaking hands as they campaign for their next great office. So some
people can campaign and others can't? Who gets to choose? Who sets
the
litmus test?
The Saint Paul Farmers' market is the commons if their ever was one.
How ironic that this happened the day before our observance of the
Declaration of Independence - the birth of democracy, with its'
guarantee of free speech.
You know it makes me want to sign up to be a DNC volunteer, I think I
will take the Northwest corner and the sun won't be in my eyes. If
any
readers know how I can join up; please contact me.
It is a time-honored tradition for the Saint Paul Farmers' Market to
be
a public space. What happened this morning is a "tragedy of the
commons." The Saint Paul Farmers' Market should honor free speech and
never, ever again kick people out that are engaged in our democratic
process.
Happy 4th of July.
Peace follows freedom and justice,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mary C. Zanmiller
West Seventh Neighborhood
Saint Paul, MN USA
_____________________________________________
To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 20:16:09 -0500
From: "Tom & Elsa Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [StPaul] RE: Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market
To: "stpaul forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Is no place off limits for the DNC/DFL? Can't we go anywhere without
having to hear politics? I don't care if it's the DNC/DFL or GOP. When
I go to the Farmers Market I want to shop amongst the fresh produce and
not amongst the stench of politics. Please leave politics out of some
places in our lives.
If they actually do lease the property than they pay to be there.
Whether or not public dollars went into the project is of no relevance.
Only the terms of the lease the city signed. If you have a grievance it
is not with the Farmers Market it is with your city council, or
whomever, signed the lease that gave the lease rights to the Farmers
Market.
Tom Thompson
Como Park
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 22:17:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [StPaul] RE: Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market
To: "Tom & Elsa Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: stpaul forum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
If you want to stay away from politics, you should stay away from all
forms of organized public spaces, including farmers markets and public
roads, libraries, post offices, medical centers, restaurants and
bridges.
How do you think any of these things would come to be without the
vision
and effort of competent people who choose to devote themselves to
public
service?
I think that the attitude that you profess, that politics has a
"Stench",
is a deadly one for our civilization, and you should be ashamed of such
an
attitude. While some politicians behave shamfully, there is no lack
of
similar shameful behavior among every form on human endeaver, from
religion to business to education to labor. This is just the human
condition. You always will have bad people, in every profession, from
the
priesthood to the oil business.
I personally want to thank all the people who serve us, the public, by
running for office, serving in office, and putting up with unfounded
and
unfair criticism like Tom Thompson expresses here.
Bob Treumann, Como Park
Tom & Elsa Thompson said:
> Is no place off limits for the DNC/DFL? Can't we go anywhere without
> having to hear politics? I don't care if it's the DNC/DFL or GOP.
When I
> go to the Farmers Market I want to shop amongst the fresh produce and
not
> amongst the stench of politics. Please leave politics out of some
places
> in our lives.
>
> If they actually do lease the property than they pay to be there.
Whether
> or not public dollars went into the project is of no relevance. Only
the
> terms of the lease the city signed. If you have a grievance it is
not
> with the Farmers Market it is with your city council, or whomever,
signed
> the lease that gave the lease rights to the Farmers Market.
>
> Tom Thompson
> Como Park
--
Bob Treumann, Saint Paul
Please Note: Replies to this email address all go to the trash except
where the subject line contains a recognized mailing list identifier,
such
as [TCMETRO],[StPaul], MP-N ...
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 21:11:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Eric Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [StPaul] Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market
To: Paul Gleeson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Mary C. Zanmiller"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Paul Gleeson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mary,
>
> I have watched clip-board-carrying, fresh-faced
> young people wearing DNC ste
> t-shirts accost pedestrians at the Grand and
> Victoria intersection. I
> wonder........are they volunteers or do they receive
> compensation for
> contributions collected? Do you know?
I do know. The answer is no. As a matter of fact, most
Democratic fundraisers are paid a fee/salary that is
constant. It does not change with increase amounts
raised or goals missed. It's different on the
Republican side and some non-profits. If these kids
were really from the DNC, they are paid some kind of
low monthly stipend or are volunteers who are
reimbursed expenses.
It's not about the money, it's about grassroots
support idealism.
Yes, the Farmer's Market recently received about 1
million dollars from the St Paul taxpayers. Ask the
manager did he care about politics when he came to St
Paulites with is hat in his hand looking for a million
dollars. The 'stench' was sweet green back then.
For those who want to get away from being 'bothered'
while shopping fruit, you always got Cubs and Rainbow.
It's inside on private property.
Happy Fourth!
Eric Mitchell
Payne Phalen
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 00:04:59 -0500
From: "Tom & Elsa Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [StPaul] RE: Public Space and the Farmers Market
To: "stpaul forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I didn't criticize anyone in political office (although I will often
criticize the DNC/DFL positions, as they deserve it). I praise my
President George W Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney. I praise my
governor Tim Pawlenty. They are making the hard choices and good
decisions for all of us.
Just leave your political propaganda out of my face when I'm not
specifically looking for it, such as on this forum. To tell me I can't
go to the Farmers Market without having DNC/DFL "volunteers" in my face
is ridiculous. It should be my right not to have to listen to
propagandists' garbage (on either side) amongst the sweet smell of
flowers. Keep your politics where it belongs, in political forums and
the political arena. Not everywhere that's public is a place that has
to have politics drug up.
I served the public for 21 years as a public servant. I know what it
takes. I also know that politics has taken on a stench in the last few
years. The agenda of personal destruction is prevelant. It's a win at
all cost scenario now. That's not politics, that's whats destructive
and endangers our civilization. Wanting to be free from vile personal
attacks while shopping is not too much to ask.
By the way, since that property is leased, it's not public property
while the Farmers Market is there. They have a lease to use and occupy
that space.
I hope the list manager notices that a party did single me out by name
and that the list manager will take appropriate action against that
person.
Tom Thompson
Como Park
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 02:31:30 -0500
From: "Guy Western" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [StPaul] RE: Public Space and the Farmers Market
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> [Original Message]
> From: Tom & Elsa Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> I praise my President George W Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney.
> I praise my governor Tim Pawlenty. They are making the hard choices
> and good decisions for all of us.
In order to be worthy of anyone's praise, these men had better do
their
duty to uphold every citizen's constitutional right of free speech and
assembly. Just because I might characterize or imagine any encounter,
or
potential encounter, with an opposing political viewpoint as
"propaganda",
"garbage", "in my face", or "vile personal attacks" isn't really
adequate
justification for more trampling on the constitutional freedom of
other
Americans.
I'm not sure about the fine points of how much of the sidewalk, curb
and
paved parking areas of the Farmers' Market are leased or sublet by whom
or
from whom, but it has the overwhelming appearance of a public market
place.
Somewhere between your parked car and your favorite fruit stand,
someone's
right to carry a clipboard and talk about politics is going to be
constitutionally protected, as well it should be. I'm willing to bet
that
the behavior described here, even if it involves TWO people in khaki
shorts
with clipboards asking to take a moment of your time, falls far short
of
anything that could be considered riot.
Political speech isn't protected because it's "garbage"; it's a
primary
freedom--one we should celebrate even as we praise our leaders.
Political
volunteers can walk right up to the front door of your home. You, of
course, can turn them away. In the Farmers' Market, you can just keep
walking if you don't care to listen and, I assure you, the flowers
will
smell just as sweet.
Guy Western
the West Side
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 03:24:43 EDT
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [StPaul] Re: District Council Overhaul
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
A couple of points on this, first I may have been the one yelling the
loudest
about the funding formula but the initiative and my instructions to act
on it
came from the District 2 Board.
The City created the District Council system in the 70's by recognizing
those
neighborhoods that were politically active at the time and creating
Districts
where there were not active identified neighborhood organizations (East
Side
and North End). The Districts were no where near equal in size or
population.
District Councils were originally funded on a case by case grant basis
and
in the early 80's that meant that the best grant writers got the most
money.
In 1990 the current funding formula was developed that gave 80% of the
money
evenly to each district and 20% proportionately (making sure to "hold
harmless"
those districts who had larger grants than the formula would allow).
The proposed formula is 75% population, 15% poverty index, 5%
non-English
speaking, 5% jobs. So, you start with the current funding for the
system, take
75% of it and distribute it based on a districts population, next you
take 15%
of the money and base it on a district population below 100% of poverty
(15%
is the number of people in St. Paul who fall below that line), then you
take 5%
of the monies and divide it by the number on non-English speaking
adults
(city total) and lastly you take 5% and divide it based on the number
of jobs in
the district.
The total is the amount that each district would receive. The
additional
$116,000 that is needed is to bring the six smallest districts up to
$37,000 a
year. That is Downtown, West Seventh Street, Summit Hill, St. Anthony
Park,
Como, and Hamline Midway. Under the above formula these small district
don't
reach that level of funding and the additional money is needed to make
them
viable.
Though there is general agreement on this being a better formula there
is one
district that is looking for a significant increase (to complicated to
get
into) not under the proposed guidelines and finding the additional
dollars to
make this happen is also in question. We shall see if it passes. The
lack of
fairness in the system is not spread out but concentrated in Wards 5, 6
and
part of 3 (Highland). Wards 2 and 4 lose nothing if this falls apart
since all
of the highly funded small districts are in those two wards and the
impact in
Ward 1 and 7 is marginal.
Chuck Repke
District 2 E. D.
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 08:21:34 -0500
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [StPaul] Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market
To: "Mary C. Zanmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I was also at the farmer's market yesterday and saw the workers. I
too am a
customer who talked with the workers - (for disclosure's sake I am a
long time
active DFLer) Their approach was standard street organizing and it
was fun to
see non-ad based political action going on.
What is interesting is that over the years political activity at the
market jas
occurred often. I may be wrong but I believe I have seen
representative of both
mayoral campaigns in the last few campaigns there. Along with other
statewide
offices.
Sadly my last conversation with Paul Wellstone was at the market on the
Saturday
before the plane went down. I will alway carry a bittersweet memory of
Paul
shaking hands and litsening to the"customers" as he moved through the
crowd.
Quoting "Mary C. Zanmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I witnessed the worst of contemporary USA at the Saint Paul Farmers'
> Market this morning (July 3, 2004). A Democratic National Committee
> (DNC) worker was conversing with two people on the sidewalk along
the
> southwest corner of the Saint Paul Farmers' Market. As I walked by
the
> market manager was telling the DNC worker that he could not talk to
> people at the Market. I indignantly interfered and said, "He has a
> right to speak with people." The Market manager replied, "No, he
> doesn't, and customers are complaining." One of the people he was
> speaking to said, "I am a customer and I want to talk with him." I
> added, "On a public sidewalk he has a right to free speech." The
Market
> manager replied, "The Market leases the sidewalk as well and he has
to
> leave." I replied, "The next time I see our Republican mayor
speaking
> to people at the Market I will find you and you will have to ask him
to
> leave."
>
> This is plain wrong. The people of Saint Paul paid for this market.
> Hundred of thousands of public dollars was recently invested to
upgrade
> this space. The people of Saint Paul generously support the market
by
> buying from the farmers selling their products. So in Saint Paul
we
> no longer honor the free speech that is guaranteed in the
constitution.
> Many times I have seen Mayor Randy Kelly and Senator Norman Coleman
> shaking hands as they campaign for their next great office. So some
> people can campaign and others can't? Who gets to choose? Who sets
the
> litmus test?
>
> The Saint Paul Farmers' market is the commons if their ever was one.
> How ironic that this happened the day before our observance of the
> Declaration of Independence - the birth of democracy, with its'
> guarantee of free speech.
>
> You know it makes me want to sign up to be a DNC volunteer, I think
I
> will take the Northwest corner and the sun won't be in my eyes. If
any
> readers know how I can join up; please contact me.
>
> It is a time-honored tradition for the Saint Paul Farmers' Market to
be
> a public space. What happened this morning is a "tragedy of the
> commons." The Saint Paul Farmers' Market should honor free speech
and
> never, ever again kick people out that are engaged in our democratic
> process.
>
> Happy 4th of July.
>
> Peace follows freedom and justice,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Mary C. Zanmiller
> West Seventh Neighborhood
> Saint Paul, MN USA
>
>
> _____________________________________________
> To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> _____________________________________________
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>
> To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit:
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>
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>
------------------------------
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