Sadly,
I think it goes farter than that; unfortunately this post by Mr. Driscoll is ample evidence of not only the hatred, paranoia and mean-spiritedness of many individuals in politics today. It is also evidence of why forums like this one are not only increasingly irrelevant to most normal, ordinary citizens day to day lives, but they also are actually harming the electorate and helping polarize our society. Please understand me, I am not critical of what Mr. Driscoll�s political beliefs are, nor am I saying that those on the right have not been as mean spirited, and at times as vitriolic in there rhetoric, however the defense of your just as bad should not be a defense. I also understand that I am sure that the list master will chide me saying this is not a political, nor a Saint Paul specific issue. I would humbly disagree, not only has the extreme nastiness and hatred of the rhetoric of many become a political issue; it is obvious that it HAS effected the goings on at City Hall. It is ridiculous to argue that those who believe that everyone who disagrees with them has ulterior motives based on greed, bigotry and support of �fascism� has not led to the recall effort of Randy Kelly, the change in Council Leadership and the rhetoric used by some in the recent smoking ban debate. The bottom line is this type of language and behavior has become a �political issue� and a campaign issue, 30 years ago if Mr. Driscoll would have stood on the street corner and said exactly what he wrote most Minnesotans would have viewed him as a harmless �crackpot� and dismissed him as irrelevant, today some of the same language and ideas are used in a �documentary� and not only does it gross over 100 million dollars but the theories it expounds are taken as gospel by millions of Americans. Think about that, millions of American voters believe the current President is trying to establish a fascist regime and eviscerate the Constitution. What ever your political beliefs are most Americans should understand even those who they disagree with do so, not because they are motivated by greed or want to destroy what Americans stands for, but because they truly love this country and believe in what it stands for. I may not support John Kerry for President, however there is no question in my mind that he is espousing his ideas because he loves America and wants to make it better, we may disagree on what America is, and how to make it better but that does not mean that he is EVIL for what he believes, nor does it mean that I am evil, or �fascist� for what I believe. Forums like this tend to drive out people, who do not see the world in ideological extremes, I am waiting to see on any of these E-Democracy lists someone say that they are voting against the President because they disagree with his policies, and stop there-instead of establishing a motive for those policies based in fear, hatred and paranoia. In other words I constantly read from people who post to these lists about how the �deputized goons in unneeded riot gear� are trying �scuttle the Bill of Rights� and that is why they are voting against Bush. Again, if you don�t think this is a local issue, read some of the comments in the past month regarding Randy Kelly, many posters who disagree with Randy�s decision subscribe motives to it based in speculation that he is looking for a new job, he was paid off or he was selling out to the �corporate interests.� How about he just thought Bush would make a better President and represents his values better? Many of us former Democrats felt that as the party moved to the left it no longer represented our values and our beliefs; maybe that is where Randy is. (I am one, Nomination Committee Chair 1992 DFL Convention in Duluth) Finally, although I am voting for Bush and actively support him my concern with Kerry has less to do with his policies, than what the result of a Kerry election will have on the American electorate as a whole. If you look back at least to Nixon and the Watergate era, each corresponding Presidential term has led to more outrageous, and vitriolic attacks from the party not in control. Ford was attacked by the left unmercifully, and rhetoric against Carter was higher than it was against Ford, the same can be said of Reagan critics who were more hate-filled then the critics of Carter, following that the Clinton critics brought there hatred to new and more extreme levels, until you listen to the Bush critics. We have had two hundred years of relatively peaceful transitions of power, and at the local level in Saint Paul, those transitions have been for the most part peaceful. My concern is where do we go from here, if we continue to ratchet up the level of extremism and hatred in our society, and it continues to not only become commonplace, but a part of the mainstream-the only possible outcome will be violence, something I can�t imagine any of us want. Ryan Kaess Eagan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We all see attacks on the constitution as egregious. I guess we just differ on what is egregious and in how we express our dissent on them. I see abortion as against the constitution, I see the right to own firearms as written into the constitution, yet I don't think you have to agree with me, only accept that we all have different beliefs.This response was uncalled for, profane, rude and insulting. This does not add to the dialogue we need to be having about what direction the country needs to go in, this slows and hinders that dialogue. Believe Right is right or Left is right, argue your case with eloquence. Stick to the issues and not personal insults or innuendo.I see Socialism and Marxism here in the United States, but Fascism? We are all entitled to our opinions. You state that you won't let others stop you from espousing your beliefs, yet you condemn others who have beliefs that differ from you. Where is your open mindedness? Why can't others have an opinion d ifferent from you? We are not all Borg's being assimilated.I don't think Paul has anything to be ashamed of. He has an opinion and I am glad he presented it. I'm glad you presented yours. They do show a striking difference between beliefs and tolerance though.Tom ThompsonComo ParkOriginal Message:"on 8/19/04 9:18 PM, Paul Kuettel wrote:> Hi All!> > I had 4 ducats to the GWB Bash, but shied away from the potential wait,> and I was prescient.> > Mitch Berg had VIP tix and my 14-year-old Drew became "Darryl Berg" for> a day.> > Came home with campaign stuff like those obnozious inflatable baseball> bats and eyes the size of saucers.> > How interesting that 15,000 patient and enthusiastic Americans v. 200> mugwumps got equal press in the dailies.> > Cheers!> > PK> Falcon Heights""Read 'em and weep. Bush's first three years got all the coverage andresisters not a sou's worth. This rightwing pap is so sick it'sunbelievable. Democracy is sloppy, unkempt, unorganized and costs money and time andresources. But it is not threatening, except to those who would strip itaway from us, especially our unelected leaders.Get this straight, Paul: this is the United States of America. You wantfascism? Go somewhere else. Read the Constitution your President hastattered and torn to shreds in the name of God and national security. Thepeople are not only given the right, but the responsibility to resist.Dissent is not treason. This damned country was founded on dissent. Attemptsto stifle it or shame it out of our system will meet with another realrevolution, I guarantee it.Throw all the deputized goons in unneeded riot gear at us you will, you'llnot stop us from defying attempts to scuttle the Bill of Rights. It mayserve you to dump it, but the rest of this nation - the world for thatmatter - value those freedoms you bums say you're protecting by bombing theshit out of thousands of innocent Iraqis, raping them, beating and killingnaked, defenseless detainees, then driving dump truck barriers betweencitizens and their President.Junk. All of it. Resistance is here. Change is coming.The terrorists are they who govern for the moment. They are at war withtheir own, not just Islam. We are America. We are the patriots.Why aren't you petrified for the soul of your nation?Shame on you.Andy DriscollSaint Paul"--_____________________________________________To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules DiscussionEmail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]_____________________________________________NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit:http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaulArchive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! 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