My responses are bracketed.
Message: 2 Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:56:01 -0800 (PST) From: M Charles Swope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [StPaul] Re: Re: cops....etc....resp: B. Parker. To: popman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [email protected] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- popman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: "The biggest reason why we don't have a greater crime rate is because this city doesn't have the hard attitude of big cities like LA / NYC / Chicago. We have more educational opportunities here in relation to the population, which softens attitudes. The cops in those other cities make $40k and some make LESS!" Is this an example of where Russ uses his "common sense" rather than bother with statistics? It appears so. I can't speak about LA or Chicago but cops in NYC do NOT make $40k or less. The starting salary for a cop in NYC is $44,000 and the average salary after five years is $77,000. [Perhaps, but they are much larger cities. What is the starting salary for this city police? I would suspect that it's comparable and it shouldn't be. Common sense tells me that N.Y. is a tougher town with higher crime rates] As for our problems being less than those in larger cities, you are only slightly less likely to be murdered or attacked in St. Paul than in NY. And you are far more likely to be burglarized in St. Paul than in NY. http://www.bestplaces.net/crime/crime.aspx?Lcity=2758000&Rcity=3651000&= [Charlie, Population is 1/4 million St. Paul. N.Y. is 7 1/2 MILLION! You ought to know that when this website reports aggravated assaults at the almost the very same rate! There's GOT TO BE something wrong with the study. It this rate, St. Paul is the got to be the assault capital of the world per thousand people! Look at another one of this websites statistics� The one for motor vehicle theft in N.Y. 462.8. In St. Paul, it's 756.2! This is totally laughable. The reverse would be closer to reality. The figures are simply hilarious! Stats are usually just used to obtain funding. That's why I tend to shy away from them. I find them unreliable for any other use. ] This notion that St. Paul is a small town with small town problems may have been true 25 years ago. As the recent murders and gang activity have shown, it isn't anymore. We may be a bit behind Minneapolis in this regard but I suspect we'll catch up soon. [Are you trying to say that the sky is falling? St. Paul will never be a N.Y.C. or Chicago. St. Paul as long way to go even to be a world class city. ] It's certainly legitimate to question how well we are being served by our police force but let's try to get our facts straight first. [Here's a friendly little tip for you: Use your common sense and you will find that you will have more "facts" that you'll ever need to know.] Rowdy Russ Hanson. The Truth in St. Paul. Charlie Swope Ward 1 My responses are bracketed. Message: 5 Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:22:26 -0600 From: Bob Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [StPaul] Re: Re: cops....etc....resp: B. Parker. To: popman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [email protected] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Mar 11, 2005, at 9:38 AM, popman wrote: > > > > Bob, > [The biggest reason why we don't have a greater crime > rate is because this city doesn't have the hard > attitude of big cities like LA / NYC / Chicago. We > have more educational opportunities here in relation > to the population, which softens attitudes. The cops > in those other cities make $40k and some make LESS! Russ, the average salary for a sergeant is around 55K a year. They run from 49 to 63 K nationally. And since we seem to keep trimming funding to the very schools that need it the most, we can look forward to a much more swollen criminal demographic. [I can live with this schools / crime co-relation. The figures that I had found in the past when I argued this point a few years ago. In comparable cities with comparable crime rates the starting salaries were indeed much less that in St. Paul. ] One of my best friends teaches elementary in Osseo, and is closely attuned to the correlation of funding to abilities to succeed at what they are trying to accomplish there. He knows that having a stable home with good parenting comes first, and that we cannot rely on our schools to compensate for a lack thereof, but that is the real expectation from a good part of the state's population. > > St. Paul is a silly little small to medium > "marshmallow" city and we simply don't need to gold > plate our cops. I moved her after growing up in Chicago. I have been beaten and threatened by Chicago cops, and I really don't see that happening here. [Oh�you didn't know a about the skirmish at Lucy's bar? This is the case of a 6'5, 250lb cop, beat the stuffings out of a 5'2, 103 lb woman? The cop wasn't even reprimanded for it�and the list goes on and on and on��] St Paul is neither small or silly. It was home to most of the worst gangsters in the thirties (I know- a little irrelevant, but still....) and has today neighborhoods I won't walk through at night, some very near me. I should note that I am a third degree black belt and am not unfamiliar with being shot at.( Three times.) [Being that your from Chicago and I've spent some time there as well. You know, as well as I do, that life is much tamer here than there and so are the people. So why shouldn't the police salaries be lower here than there? ] The ratings driven, capitalistically forced media > likes to sensationalize police "work" by > over-emphasizing the "danger factor". Don't think that > the cops don't take full advantage (capitalism) of > this at contract time and in their public relations. > In reality, there's very little "danger factor" > involved in being a cop in a soft city like St. Paul. > There are more dangerous jobs in this city than being > a cop. It seems like you have a vendetta. It also seems like you don't actually know any cops. I'm sorry to be this accusatory, and I never thought I would grow up to defend cops (I was pretty radical in my younger days), but there is so much to that lifestyle and its downsides that you fail to mention. Not every cop gets shot at every day, true. But every one puts him or herself in the position to be, frequently. But that is only part of the package. > [I do not have a vendetta against police. But firefighters put themselves in a position to harmed as well as convenience store employees and cabbies. Remember 9/11? It was the firefighters that went in to those burning towers while the cops stayed way clear. Firefighters have a much more dangerous job that cops do. ] > Admittedly, we do have some SMALL problem areas that > require more policing than others, however, small > problem areas does not > a city > make! Take a stroll through some of those small problems. >> From your post, it would seem that we currently have > more than enough police power to handle it. OK, not my post, here..... > > > > We need to kiss a lot more teachers and firefighters > and lot less cops. > > Please don't lump in the firefighters and teachers as > they are the people who ACTUALLY DO some work. Your > paramedics come from the fire department and not the > cop-shop. The unfortunate teachers don't have built-in > media glorified assistance working for them. They have > to prove their value and be held accountable for every > thing they do. They should be paid more because > they're worth more to the citizens. The cops, on the > other hand, are just report takers, and rarely do they > ever "solve" a crime. Usually a citizen has to POINT > THE COP in the right direction! > > You don't have to "point" a firefighter to the fire or > a teacher to the classroom! Well, see my above comment on teachers. As far as the difference between firefighters and police, it is comparing apples to oranges in terms of their need and value. One is significantly proactive and the other reactive. And I don't mean to minimize firefighters' efforts to prevent fires, either! [True! But in St. Paul, there isn't much to react to. That's my point. It's just not a crime-ridden town. I would like to remind you that the fire department is both proactive and reactive because they do respond to medical emergencies. Police don't do that.] > > > > The city is not experiencing a "crime wave" and why a > disingenuous Kelly wants even more cops is probably > just another grandstand on his re-election bid and > it's being funded by the over-worked and under-paid > taxpayers! Why should the taxpayers be forced to > INDIRECTLY assist in funding items on the mayor's > re-election resume? Do you actually know anyone who smokes crack? If you do, ask him how many houses near you are involved. As far as the mayor and his campaign, I think he has lost credibility with us in terms of his support for public services with the reduction of team strength on fire trucks. > [No. I don't have those kind of friends. Kelly lost all credibility with me when he was involved with plant problem down on w.7th street. It showed me that he is a Democrat in name only. The firefighters current beef with him only fortifies my opinion of the mayor. ] > What if we took the some of the money given to the > police and fund good paying, living wage jobs for > recidivists, maybe they would be LESS tempted to steal > and rob? > Drug treatment programs instead of jail terms would > also help. Wouldn't jail costs be reduced and fund the > cost of the programs? (Socialism to rescue!) I am in total agreement with you on the treatment vs enforcement thing. But for the time being, I still have to worry about the thug phase. > > In sum: The police practice "advantage taking", > (capitalism) and one can easily see where it's gotten > us. We now have a bloated gold plated force of > statistic writers that can accidentally shoot you and > rarely do what they're supposed to do, which is to > solve crimes. This is a bloated, smug and uninformed thing to say. People don't go to school to become police officers because it's the easy way to fast cash, and a clever way to feed at the public trough. "Capitalism" has nothing to do with this point. [Capitalism has everything to do with the whole subject matter. The capitalistic media is driven by ratings. They get these ratings, in part, by over sensationalizing cops "danger factor". The cops public relations people take advantage of this at contract time and literally extort money from the city. This false impression created by the media allows for advantage taking, which is very capitalistic. ] I have a feeling that you aren't familiar with China and its enormous and omnipresent police force. It was in place long before the Chinese would even consider the word "capitalism" as anything other than the worst pejorative! [The Chinese were communists. There are differences between communism and socialism. The former U.S.S.R. was indeed, communist but it was corrupted with western influences. �but that's another post and off the subject.] Rowdy Russ Hanson. The Truth in St. Paul. My response is bracketed. Message: 6 Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:58:35 GMT From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [StPaul] Re: Re: Banning tobacco won't work? Yes ! it To: popman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [email protected] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> You say, " Cops always like to cite how many calls were answered. This gives a false impression. It should be how many calls were answered compared to how many arrests AND resulting convictions there were over a given period of time." Okay, so what are those figures? You also say "Why is it that statistics are always demanded when common sense and experience is all that's necessary? What should be comparable is the number of cops to the number of courts. If the cops were as busy as they would have you believe, then it would probably 10 years to get a simple speeding ticket in front of a judge. Cops always like to cite how many calls were answered. This gives a false impression." So let me see if this position meets your test of common sense. If the courts are congested, that would show that the cops are working hard. Couldn't it also mean that the courts are not working hard? Why should we believe one and not the other. [Because the there are more cops that judges and courts. Most cases lack necessary prosecutable features. This is the fault of the police and not the courts or the prosecutors.] Isn't it possible that the police and courts are both working hard to get cases through the courts and disposed of in a timely manner. [With your line of questioning, anything in this world is possible and I think that you know that ...counselor. But The Truth in St. Paul ain't bitin' :=).] That seems to me to be the common sense analysis. Only somebody with an axe to grind and no common sense would conclude that lack of court congestion means the cops are not working hard. [No it doesn't. It means that courts can and do dispose of cases because they weren't submitted properly for a variety of other reasons. By the way, that somebody isn't me. I have no axe to grind. My own cases were not even tried! In both cases the cops just re-acted too damm fast to turn in quality work. They wouldn't listen to reason. But we're off the subject here. ] You also say, "Police do get free one free apartment in all St. Paul's high rises. One officer gets an apartment to use at PERSONAL discretion. All they have to do is patrol (drive thru) the parking lot. The benefits of being a cop in this city are astounding." So are you saying that all the police have to share the one apartment, in which case it must get pretty crowded. Or, are you saying that each officer gets their own individual apartment, it which case there must be some high rises that are all cops. Where would they be? [Do you mean the Keystone Kops? :=) ] Rowdy Russ Hanson. The Truth in St. Paul. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ------------------------------------------------- JOIN the St. Paul Issues Forum TODAY: http://www.e-democracy.org/stpaul/ ------------------------------------------------- POST MESSAGES HERE: [email protected] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/
