> -----Original Message-----
> From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

(First off, I take your point, but am just stupid enough to think that an
implementation is nevertheless possible.  The following is just to spur
further thought.)

> What'a a "user" (i.e. what properties does one have)?

Exactly what it is in container-managed authentication, e.g. a Principal.
Container implementations could hold whatever the container decides they
should hold.  *That* data would *not* be portable across containers--only
the Principalness would be, and the addUser(Principal) method (or some
such).

> What's a "role"?

Exactly what it is in container-managed authentication, e.g. a String.

> How about "groups"?

Groups are roles, just as they are in container-managed authentication.

> Oh, and now I need SSL certificates.

No, not necessarily, because container-managed authentication via the
mechanisms supported out of the box does not need them.

(And so on.)

Cheers,
Laird


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