Nobody has taken up my offer, so it is now dormant until I hear otherwise. I did not intend my suggestions to replace whatever is needed in the meantime. As I said, don't take anything personally.
On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 10:14, Tomeu Vizoso <to...@sugarlabs.org> wrote: > 2009/11/5 Edward Cherlin <echer...@gmail.com>: >> We need at least one more hat (in addition to those described below), >> which I am willing to put on. Somebody needs to coordinate field >> testing and feedback, so that we have data to make decisions from, or >> we can get appropriate data when they are not yet available. >> >> It is not enough to have a coordinator, of course. We must have >> populations of users (various ages, various countries, in some cases >> various disabilities) approved for testing (at least by themselves, by >> their teachers, and by any administrators with responsibility for >> them). We must have people willing and able to install, de-install, >> and monitor changes. We must have a place to put raw data and results. >> We may occasionally need a tool built. We seem to have no shortage of >> ideas, or even patches, but I am willing to hear more on that point. >> There is more, but that would be sufficient for getting started. >> >> If the developers are willing to get their part organized, I will take >> this question to iaep and grassroots, and to management, and see >> whether we can get covered at the user end or anything else that >> people think of. Oh, yes. Experiment designers and the like from Ed >> schools. > > Having someone coordinating this area would be of great help, but I'm > worried about forgetting that perfect is the enemy of good. As > starters, I think we just need to get some opinions from deployers, > developers, testers and UI designers and make sure that any technical > decision (such as pushing code) is made after taking into account that > feedback. > > Once we have this working, we can start thinking about how to make the > feedback we get from those groups more relevant and of more quality. > > Regards, > > Tomeu > >> I'm delighted to see these discussions making progress. I have long >> detested the unfolding hover menus. Keep it up, but please don't take >> any of it personally. >> >> On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 10:44, C. Scott Ananian <csc...@laptop.org> wrote: >>> On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Michael Stone <mich...@laptop.org> wrote: >>>>> ps. I've found the discussion of ideas here much more interesting than >>>>> the finger-pointing. >>>> >>>> Understandable; thanks for providing this feedback. Are there specific >>>> ideas that have come up in this thread other than the one that Wade >>>> supplied that you have found particularly thought-provoking? >>> >>> In general, revisiting the "why" and attempts to discover different >>> solutions which achieve the original goals. Like Martin Dengler, I >>> find myself convinced all over again when I revisit the original >>> motivation. Real world feedback indicates, however, that the current >>> behavior frustrates some users, despite "best laid plans". It's >>> obviously time to return to the "why" and come up with different ways >>> to accomplish those goals. (Discussion which is simply "I want X" >>> without a consideration of how this relates to the design goals is >>> much less interesting -- I won't say useless, but it begs for someone >>> to contextualize it and provide the missing rationale before it fits >>> well into the conversation I would like to be having.) >>> >>>>> Attempts to shift responsibility (it's my patch, >>>>> YOU have to prove that it's wrong -vs- it's my design, YOU have to >>>>> prove that it's wrong) are productive/necessary to some degree, but a >>>>> family matter you guys should take out back somewhere to hash out. >>>> >>>> Do you have a recommendation on where "out back" would be? Some other >>>> mailing list? Private conversation? >>> >>> If it's a truely personal matter, private email (or some physical >>> location where you can sit down together for a beer). If it's about >>> hashing out a philosophy of participation, then mixing it together >>> with discussion of UI changes is not helping either conversation >>> progress. Sometimes you can't do two things at once, but you can do >>> them separately. >>> >>>> I understand you to be saying that we should be listening to people with >>>> the experience necessary to have informed opinions. Is this a fair >>>> summary of your position? >>> >>> Not necessarily. My position is that there's an interesting UI >>> discussion largely buried in this thread. There's also a >>> community/contribution/patch-approval conversation which I don't have >>> any strong opinion on. Finally, there's a meta-topic revealing some >>> splits within the community which I do have some thoughts on. >>> >>> I am currently working on a(nother) strongly design-oriented >>> "bottom-up" UI, and it has reminded me that such development *can* >>> work. Having a strongly coherent "user story" and regular feedback >>> from those users *is* really important. That said, unfiltered user >>> opinions are often short-sighted. You really do need a "designer" >>> role: some group of people who can keep the overall goals in mind and >>> maintain overall direction. Some problems need evangelism, some >>> problems need design fixes, some problems are unexpected/unresolved, >>> some problems are "won't fix" (proposed feature out of scope, not >>> relevant to target users, impossible with given resources, workaround >>> pending further user feedback/maturity of proper fix), and some >>> problems are just bugs. >>> >>> I don't think that treating all proposed code changes uniformly as >>> "bugs" is the right solution. I also don't think that developers >>> cannot put on designer hats, or vice versa. But the necessary >>> organizational discipline seems to be missing in this thread. >>> Separate your concerns and have separate, focused, conversations: have >>> everyone put on designer hats and discuss the problem (some users are >>> frustrated by context menus/some users are not as efficient as they >>> could be/some users perceive the interface as sluggish because of >>> intentionally-added delays), goal, and possible solutions. In another >>> thread, put on your manager hats and figure out how to nuture >>> contributions, organize designer roles, maintain coherence (both in >>> code and design/vision), and maintainability (again, you should be >>> spending as much time on design "janitor work" as you seem to be >>> willing to spend on code janitorial duties). In yet another context, >>> put on coder hats and look at the purely technical issues (in this >>> case, how to treat patch sets which essentially orphan other blocks of >>> code, patches which demonstrate an idea pending designer feedback, and >>> possibly how to enable more efficient A/B testing with actual users). >>> Finally, you can hash out whatever personal issues, grudges, or >>> misgivings in some other context -- I've always considered actual >>> face-to-face conferences the best way to enable reconciliation and >>> team building, but you could also consider personal mail which says, >>> "I feel this response of yours was overly personal..." or "I apologize >>> if my response seemed sharp, I thought about this more after I hit >>> send and realized that not everyone knew XYZ which I was assuming was >>> obvious..." or whatever. >>> >>> I'm not helping the situation at all by opening yet another topic on >>> this thread: the meta topic of how I feel this conversation is going. >>> Clearly I'm not part of the solution, but you (dear readers) may be. >>> --scott >>> >>> -- >>> ( http://cscott.net/ ) >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sugar-devel mailing list >>> Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org >>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin >> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation. >> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination. >> http://www.earthtreasury.org/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Sugar-devel mailing list >> Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel >> > > > > -- > «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar. > What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David > Farning > -- Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination. http://www.earthtreasury.org/ _______________________________________________ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel