Hi Edley,

Your idea of interval timers based on the sun is intriguing. I have not seen
previous references to this function. The examples that you described will
work, but only for location, date and time specific instances.

The examples given work on the basis of solar azimuth. While this is related
to time angle, the relationship is non-linear and strongly dependant on the
solar altitude determined by latitude, declination and time. (Tan Az = Sin
t/(Sin Lat x Cos t - Cos Lat x Tan t) where t is the time angle from noon in
degrees). When the altitude is high, the azimuth changes rapidly. The
maximum rate of change of azimuth occurs at noon when the declination and
latitude are equal. I could prove this mathematically but there isn't enough
room in the margin of this note. The consequence is that lunch hours
determined by pie sections would be much longer at higher latitudes. Is this
fair?

One solution would be to tilt the pie from the horizontal plane to the
equatorial plane. at an angle from the vertical equal to the latitude. In
this orientation the pie will measure the time angle but all the juice will
run out! It is better to define lunch as the time interval to consume the
pie. Before sundials were invented, stomach time ruled.

One time interval that demonstrates the non-linear effect very well is
sunset. Let's define sunset as the time taken from the time the lower limb
meets the horizon to the last flash as the upper limb disappears. The solar
diameter is typically half a degree (or 32 minutes of arc). If this was
solely determined by the time angle which changes at 15 degrees per hour,
sunset time defined this way would be two minutes of time. That is what it
is on the equator on the equinox. Everywhere else the sun sets at an angle
approximately equal to the co-latitude ( More precisely Cos Phi = Sin Lat /
Cos Dec). The sunset time interval is therefore the solar rate / Sin Phi.
Today my theoretical sunset time at latitude 51 and declination -22.73 is
3.7 minutes. This explains why sunsets in the tropics are so short. Time
flies when you are having fun!


Roger Bailey
Walking Shadow Designs
N 51 W 115

Further details on "Sunset Phenomenon" are contained in my 1999 NASS
presentation, a 394 kb PowerPoint (ppt) file. I would be happy to send a
copy as an email attachment to you and others upon request.

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Edley
Sent: December 2, 2001 12:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Interval Timers?


Dear Membership,

Sundial interval timers seem to be an area that is not well
documented in the documents I have access to.

One type of interval timer is a basic triangular wedge of some
thickness.  When the light is just extinguished on one edge til it
just lights up the other ( when in the equatorial plane ) indicates
the solar time equal to the angle included.  30 degrees, a 6th of a
circle would time two hours,  Half that slice or 15 degrees would
time an hour.  Could it be that pie was invented and in some places
eaten last so that, in the sun, it could time out the lunch hour??

An equilateral triangle times out 4 hours.  Two of them with a
triangular gap between them time out a work day with time off for
lunch.

Could so many of the triangular markings we see on old sites be
interval timers of some kind?

What seems to be neat to me is that it doesn't matter whether the
sharp end or the blunt end of the triangle faces the sun.  When the
blunt end faces the sun, a finger held up on the circumference would,
when it casts its shadow on the tip of the pie, give an indication of
how much lunch hour is left.

Long, long ago, I won a bet with my dad by placing a small mirror
tile a long way from our house and getting the reflection to sweep
from one end of our house to the other in exactly one minute.  Later
I placed a dowel in a Christmas tree base and with a blob of modeling
clay at the top repeated this for several intervals of time.

The moon, when it is half full, subtends about a quarter of a degree
which movement is about 1 minute.  ( unfortunately the width is not
in line with it's movement )  A piece of tape, the edge of a building
and a fixed viewing point could time a 3 minute egg at midnight??

Write me if you have any documentation regarding this.  Especially
ancient records of interval timers.

Thanks much!

Edley McKnight

[43.126N 123.357W]

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