Dear Frank , you are always very subtle and acute in your answers and for this reason I feel obliged to explain the points from you underlined :-)
-------------------------- 1. CHANGE FROM TEMPORARY HOURS TO EQUAL HOURS *You wrote "An example is the great Horologium Solarium of* * Augustus in Rome. This used Seasonal Hours."* It has been proved ( see for example the Frans Maes' article on The Compendium) that Augustus didn't built a great sundial (Horologium Solarium) but only a great meridian line. Question 1: * "Do you know when Rome changed from Seasonal Hours to Equal Hours?"* The Western Roman Empire ended in 476 after C. and the Eastern in 1452. The chronicles that remain in Western Europe name the temporary hours also during the Middle Age even if these kind of hours, remembered by writers and wise men, begun not to be followed by common people. From VII-IX century the system of time on which all the civil activities were founded was slowly replaced from that of the Canonical Hours (Horae Canonicae) that is the system of the prayers of the monasteries (S. Benedetto - St. Benedict- 480-547 ) marked by the strikes of the bells. Even if some of these prayers had (and have also today) the names of some old temporary hours (Prima, Terza, Sesta, Nona – First, Third, Sixth, Ninth) the instants no more coincided with the ancient system and the division of the time of the peasants and in the first cities was that of the prayers. ( Hora Nona was abou modern15h but the prayer was said at noon ) This use remained in force (in Italy and in Europe) till XIII-XIV century even if in the official acts the temporary hours were still named. The wise knew very well these things as they knew also the equal hours (Dante in his work Convivio describes very clearly the different systems of hours). The equal hours started to be used after the advent of the tower clocks, even if the call to the ancient uses and to the hours of the prayers remains still today in some Italian dialect sentences. -------------------------- 2. ITALIAN HOURS AND ITALIC HOURS Question 2: * What is the Italian for "Italic Hours"?* In Italy today all dialists to point out the hours from sunset speak of "Italic Hours", other people don't even know what they are :-) In palaeography and in typography the word italic ( as masculine noun), has also the meaning of "cursive". -------------------------- 3. EZANIC HOURS * What is the capital of Italy? Rome? Rome? Rom? * * The answer depends on who asks the question and, perhaps, in which language.* Your question seems me a joke. It's correct, but we are speaking in English (or in my pseudo English) and if among dialists we want to speak of hours from sunset we have to speak of Italic hours or Italian hours (as in all the books and magazines in English or other European languages) . Obviously in the books written in Turkish ( I have one !) (or in the language of a nation out of our common European culture that originates from the middle age and from the Renaissance) the system of the hours from sunset will be called in different ways. And secondly: * If you are a Canadian diallist, setting up a Turkish-inspired sundial in the United States,* * how do you describe hours that start at sunset?* If I were a Canadian dialist and I had to describe a sundial built according to the Turkish style and this kind of hours to a public of English or French language I would speak of hours from sunset or of italic hours or of "heures italienne" : certainly I would not speak in Turkish :-) In Italy we have the sentence "to speak Turkish" that means to speak abstrusely , in a not comprehensible way :-) Obviously a Turkish Muslim born in Turkey more easily understands the word ezan (but not ezanic hours !) but a Turkish Muslim that lives in England, speaks English, has studied on our books and reads our emails, I think has some difficulties to understand what are the ezanic h. -------------------------- 4. BYZANTINE HOURS * This is a big puzzle! But, on Mount Athos, there are real communities who call their time Byzantine Hours.* I think that the persons of to the communities of the Mount Athos never speak of "Byzantine hours" in English but they speak or in Greek or in Turkish or in an ancient dialect of that country. But in the tourist bulletins (entry in M. At. 35 euro, about 50 $) the schedules are all in our modern hours :-) NOTE : Rhor in his book "Sundial", Italian edition, in pag. 110 says that "in the monasteries of Mount Athos still use the julian calendar and the temporary hours" ??? Best wishes Gianni Ferrari 2008/8/21 Frank King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Dear Gianni, > > It is always a pleasure to read your messages > to this list. As usual, your reply is full of > scholarly interest and invites more questions! > > > 1. CHANGE FROM TEMPORARY HOURS TO EQUAL HOURS > > You say that in classical times "The only system of > hours used was that of the temporary or seasonal hours: > 12 hours from dawn to sunset (period of light) and > 12 hours from sunset to dawn (night)." > > An example is the great Horologium Solarium of > Augustus in Rome. This used Seasonal Hours. > > You also say that there was a change to Equal Hours > (and the day could start at sunrise, sunset, noon or > midnight) but always 24 hours in total. > > Question 1: > > Do you know when Rome changed from Seasonal Hours > to Equal Hours? > > > 2. ITALIAN HOURS AND ITALIC HOURS > > Your explanation about the clocks is excellent. As > a "temperatore" myself, I would not like to wind a > clock that struck 300 times a day! 84 strikes from > 4 x 6 hours is much better. The clock weight would > be much smaller! > > I love the expression "ore ultramontane". This is > delightfully chauvinistic! > > You say "In our language today there is a small > difference between the adjective "Italic" and the > adjective "Italian". > > This is most interesting and also new information > for me, but I have a problem... > > My translation of "Italian Hours" is "ore italiane" > but I would translate "Italic Hours" as "ore corsive" > which is clearly NOT right!!! > > Question 2: > > What is the Italian for "Italic Hours"? > > > 3. EZANIC HOURS > > > In my opinion the "Ezanic hours" are exactly equal > > to those that we call "Italic" and they are not a > > different system of time, also if they use 2 cycles > > of 12 hour each. > > I agree with this opinion and I enjoy your question > about terminology: > > > If we call "ezanic" the hours from sunset used in > > Turkey why not to call "gurubic" the same type of > > hours used in Arabia (from the transliterated Arabic > > "ghurub ashams" = sunset)? > > I answer this with two further questions, first: > > What is the capital of Italy? > > Roma? Rome? Rom? > > The answer depends on who asks the question and, > perhaps, in which language. > > And secondly: > > If you are a Canadian diallist, setting up a > Turkish-inspired sundial in the United States, > how do you describe hours that start at sunset? > > A Turkish Muslim might be surprised to hear the > answer "Italic" so I agree, again, with your > answer: > > > Perhaps the best and simpler thing (comprehensible > > also for the not experts) would be to call this > > kind of hours "hours from sunset"... > > > 4. BYZANTINE HOURS > > You say: > > > Also the Byzantine hours... are new for me. > > You also say: > > > The Byzantine empire fell in 1453 and during > > the 1000 years of its life the usual "temporary > > hour" were used. > > This is a big puzzle! But, on Mount Athos, > there are real communities who call their > time Byzantine Hours. > > > 5. SUMMARY > > I will, of course, agree that: > > > ... "hours from sunset" ... are called "Italic " > > or "Italian" in all modern and ancient gnomonic > > books, all over the world : -) > > So, I shall keep quiet about "Ezanic Hours" and > other "ore ultramontane" :-) > > Please, though, tell me the Italian term for > "Italic Hours"! > > Very best wishes > > Frank > > -- Gianni Ferrari Mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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