Hello Wolfgang -

At 12:58 PM 3/3/03 +0100, you wrote:

>can we please stop the flame wars on this list?

As Steven has pointed out they stop when people stop trying
to renew them including psuedo attempts at mediating them.

>I think by now everyone is aware that e.g. Steven C. Darnold
>and Charles Angelich are not exactly each others hottest friends.

I cannot speak for Steven but this is not true.  I wouldn't have
created an entire webpage just to distribute his files if I did
not like him.  Most files have a few links on other pages, BasicLinux
has an entire page _plus_ a personal recommendation from me to try
it.  This gives you the impression I do not like Steven?

KNOPPIX has it's own page because I was so impressed that they are
offering to send CDs for free that I wanted to repay/reward their
efforts.

Although since it's a DOS and W31 website there would be few
pages where Linux references or links would seem appropriate. :-)

>Nevertheless we all agree that both (and others, too) are doing
>valuable contributions to the Internet and the subjects relevant
>to this list.

Thank you.

My entire website is dedicated to support of legacy hardware and
software with minor references to newer hardware and software where
it seemed appropriate to do so.  The website is probably one of the
larger survpc websites out there and it didn't write itself.

>Please, let us appreciate those valuable contributions and drop
>any personal accusations or "ad hominem" remarks!

The one person, who shall remain nameless, that is way over the top
has personal problems I will not put on display here for ridicule.
I tried to write/test and debug code for him including ASM written
in Spainish (which I do not speak) but when it seemed hopeless after
3 years he became abusive because I needed the time for other purposes
(my two websites) and my last XT, my 80286, and my 80386 machines all
died on me - no way to test the software here anymore.  His 'problem'
is in no way related to the recent disagreements and in no way related
to BasicLinux, this survpc list, and probably in no way to me either -
the man simply has problems.

>Regarding problems with EZNET:
[...]
>Therefore it is okay to say "software xy does not work for me in
>the setup that I used", but we should not say "software xy is bad
>software" unless we can diagnose (and prove) a precise technical
>error in the software.

The precise 'error' is that EZNET is inflexible, cannot be adjusted
without recompiling, and new users having only a BasicLinux install
cannot recompile it easilly (no compiler?).  The more standard dialup
relies on text files (chatscr etc.) that a new user could at least
_attempt_ to adjust to gain access to the ISP.

Any 'experience' using EZNET does not carry over when going to a
full install of any Linux I know of.  EZNET simply does not exist
in the Linux world. It's an orphan abandoned by it's author.
Learning EZNET codes, switches, and peculiarities is of no value
once you leave BasicLinux behind for a full install of SlackWare.

Does anyone here see a reason to become proficient at using an
oprhaned abandoned piece of software?  I don't.

>In the case of EZNET, a "proof" would at least require a full
>protocol snap shot (with e.g. a proper freeware program) that
>documents the exact PPP and TCP/IP packets sent/received and
>permits any expert to objectively pin-point an RFC violation on
>either the side of EZNET or the ISP. (Of course, such a protocol
>snap-shot may also point to a configuration error.)

I would never even consider debugging EZNET after the author was
as rude and flippant about the program as he was when I asked him
about the program.  He told me he did not care if it worked or not,
he no longer needed it nor his friends, since they are all on 24/7
cable connects.  I'm not his flunky to make it appear his software
was ever fully functional or that he cared one way or the other.
He doesn't.

[...]
>Therefore, in such a situation the RFCs
>(= internet standards) decide what is right or wrong, and the
>comparison of 2 programs against each other is not suitable, by
>itself, for any final judgement.

My 'comparison' (see above) was regarding methods of implimentation
and not 'programs'.  One method is easier for a user to modify to
accomodate one-of cirumstances than the other method.  EZNET is
a nonstandard orphaned abandoned piece of code that no one will
ever see again if they install any other Linux.

btw: LSPPP has a similar problem in that it is inflexible and many
have mentioned to me that newer versions won't connect to their
ISP when original versions did.  They have no option but to use
the older version.  For some no version of LSPPP will work and
they use EPPPD which relies more on text files (chat scripts).

LSPPP will fail to connect to my ISP 9 out of 10 tries fwiw.

>Regarding links:
>
>To link to specific files is _not_ a violation of Netiquette (see
>RFC 1855, Netiquette). On the contrary, the WWW was designed to
>do exactly that. Of course, the concept of the WWW assumes that
>links are treated according to proper scientific references, i.e.
>that no attempt is made to cloud the fact that the links lead to
>works of other people. (So-called "deep links" from frames that
>make the foreign content appear as one's own content, would be
>inappropriate [and even illegal in some countries]. But I cannot
>see such an inappropriateness in the links on Charles' web site.)

When I go to a website looking for a particular file or set of files
and the page seems confusing or relies on familiarity with new terminology
users may or may not understand I link directly to the files so that
I can, at my own website, use terminology that I think new users can
understand.  It's hand-holding for newbies primarilly.  Finding
FreeDOS has been like this lately with multiple versions and links to
links to links ending at a LINUX website which, I would imagine,
confuses the heck out of some people.

>Aside from this netiquette/legal aspect, there is of course the
>problem of coping with changes in links. Here a linking to a
>"mother page" instead of a specific file name with a version in
>it may alleviate the update-problem. But this is a support issue
>and has nothing to do with what is Netiquette or permitted.

As I was trying to point out when the vultures decended, the BL
webpages were rearranged recently throwing all of my links out the
window.  Steven and I could have come to some 'arrangement' if others
hadn't seen this as an opportunity to play 'hero' as though I was
attacking Steven.

My BL webpage tells users there are addons, linking to the BL v2.x page
there would be no addons.  I did not want to bypass BL v2.x but I didn't
want new people to think BL had no addons either.  I wasn't certain how
best to accomplish this 'trick' without misleading people into thinking
there was no updated BasicLinux.  New people don't find the existence
of 3 versions based on 3 different Slack distros easy to digest.  I had
visions of people downloading Slack v8.x binaries to plug into BL v1.x
etc.  There is a BL webpage that seems to have fallen between the cracks
and is only linked to from the hotlist when using older BL v1.x and LINKS.

Sorting this out to try to make it understandable for new people who have
not been following this along is time consuming as is having to explain
all this to people who have no website and cannot use this information
for anything other than gossip, inuendo, and chit-chat.

Prior to discussing any of this here I had already informed the webmaster
of the BL v1.x webpages that some of _his_ links were broken and his
reply to me (posted here earlier) was that Steven had moved files without
telling him.

THIS was what I was attempting to discuss and work out a 'plan' for.  As
I said I have 2045 external links and can't spend all of my time on just
BasicLinux link chasing nor do I have time to explain how my website is
constructed to everyone who thinks they are a better webmaster than I am.

When the dust settles on the tech website I spend considerable time
creating my own legal MP3/WMA music and putting that at my free music
webpage which I prefer to do more as time goes by rather than be the
scapegoat here on this elist.


Charles.Angelich "DOS Ghost"

Tech Website :
http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost/
Music,Photos,Stories,etc. Website :
http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost/faf/
Default Browser HomePage :
http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost/homepage.asp

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