Stuart,
I have reviewed the information that you Faxed me and think there might be some
other features which are affecting the evaporation rate of the water beyond
high voltage.
First of all, the water is at 50 deg C where water has a significant vapor
pressure and also significant latent heat in the mass of the water.
Second: High voltage can create a feature called "electric wind" which can
create a higher than normal airflow rate across a water surface. A higher
airflow can cause a higher evaporation rate as evidenced by wind blowing across
a lake. It is not uncommon to get a multiple increase in evaporation rate even
at room temperature by increasing the airflow across the surface of water.
Third: There is no accounting for the heat required to provide the energy for
evaporation. This is a physical law and not negotiable by high voltage or
such. Water doesn't just "exist" at 50 deg C unless something is heating it up
and this was not made clear in the data or sketches you sent. How much energy
was added to the water during the time of testing?
Fourth: I would like a better explanation how "water vapor" can be condensed
using high voltage. I can understand how "droplets" (not water vapor) can be
electrostatically collected if they can hold a charge but not "water vapor". I
worked for a waste water evaporator manufacturer for awhile and noticed that
the evaporation rate when the liquid level was close to the stack was quite
high. As the liquid level dropped, the rate of evaporation dropped as well.
It turns out the spray from fractured boiling bubbles was being entrained in
the airflow out the exhaust. This entrainment counted as evaporation rate but
really clogged the stack as the water evaporated and left the solids which had
been in the evaporator waste water.
Fifth: Your sketch showed water droplets being created by the airflow across
the evaporator. If droplets are being condensed in a condenser downstream of
the evaporator, the salt concentration of the condensed water will be the same
as the salt concentration in the evaporator. That is not de-salination. Only
when you go to completely pure water vapor are you able to leave the solids
behind.
Looking forward to your reply.
Art Krenzel, P.E.
PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES
10505 NE 285TH Street
Battle Ground, WA 98604
360-666-1883 voice
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: Stuart Hoenig
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com ; stuart a hoenig
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information
Art Krenzel
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
The evaporation and condensation of water are very simple. In Fig. 1 I show
the data from Japan Fig. 2 is the set up that would be used, I drew the system
of Fig. 2 on the beach where it would be used.
The distance of the high voltage electrode from the water in Fig.1 is about 5
cm. You will have to adjust this to the voltage available, Asakawa used 250
volts AC I have gotten somewhat better results with -5000 VDC. In Fig. 2 the
needles in the salt water section should run at about -10kV in the next section
-10 to -15kV best. I can send more details about the ground plate and other
things.
For the first unit you can use steel sewing needles, but steel will rust in
that environment, eventually you will have to go to stainless. I will be happy
to work with you.
Suppliers of high voltage equipment include Edmund Scientific,
www.scientificsonline.com, SURPLUS CENTER www.surpluscenter.com or GAMMA High
Voltage, ask for Dom Galluzzo Tel 904-677-7070.
Prof. Stuart A. Hoenig
Dept. of Electrical Engin.
Univ. Of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
----- Original Message -----
From: Art Krenzel
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information
Professor Hoenig:
You presented some very fine ideas with your recent post to this listserve.
I thank you.
I have followed the desalination concepts for years but have not heard of a
"simpler electrical system could increase the rate of evaporation by 500%and
the evaporated water is fresh. This water can be condensed by another simple
electrical system.
Would you elaborate on the specifics of the process, please?
I fully support your concept of recovering biogas from organic wastes
destined for landfills and subsequent loss from the cycle of life. Keep
beating the drum!
Art Krenzel, P.E.
PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES
10505 NE 285TH Street
Battle Ground, WA 98604
360-666-1883 voice
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: Stuart Hoenig
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 11:11 AM
Subject: [biofuel] Items of information
Reading the messages it appears that most of the members are thinking
only
about their personal problems. Making biogas on a home basis is
impractical for the great majority of people and there is no large
commercial industry in the business. With methane the situation is
different, there is a huge business involved in methane production. In
fact
Tucson, which may be the most backward city in the US, runs buses on
methane. It will run automobiles with just minor modifications.
Another thing about methane, you can make it anaerobically by digestion
of
garbage, sewage and farm waste. The CO2 that comes off is used for
softening hard water, the CH4 (methane) is used for fuel. Just think you
get rid of sewage and garbage quickly and produce useful fuel. There are
500 plants in Europe and about 60 in the US. I can provide more
information.
The thing that is really going to be short in the Western part of the USA
and many undeveloped countries is fresh water. The Colorado and it's dams
are down about 50% or more. One simple solution would be the desalting of
sea water. Work was done on this in Japan some years ago, it was shown
that
a simpler electrical system could increase the rate of evaporation by
500%
and the evaporated water is fresh. This water can be condensed by another
simple electrical system and you have unlimited fresh water.
These are things the world needs NOW, I would hope that the members will
give them some consideration.
Prof. Stuart A. Hoenig
Dept. of Electrical Engin.
Univ. of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721-0104
Fax 520-887-9727
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