Art Krenzel wrote:

>Bob,
>
>I have worked with the biomass gasification process for quite a few years and 
>the conversion efficiency  of biomass carbon to methanol is more in the 20% 
>region.  Check  http://www.refuelnet.de/content/refuelnet/pdf/SOMFB_99.pdf
>  
>

Thanks for the correction , Art.  I was operating from  what I thought I 
read several years back, and was trying to be generous about the 
possible yield, mainly to make the point that the low  energy return 
really makes the process unattractive. 

>At today's natural gas prices, it is cheaper to produce methanol via gas 
>synthesis than produce it via fermentation.   Hang on though, prices might be 
>changing soon. 
>
agreed.  We (USA) are sucking about all the methane we can get now from 
north America and the only way to expand sources is by shipping LNG  
in.  In a related thought, I wondered why we set up shop in Qatar for 
our invasion of Iraq, until I checked global natural gas reserves.  
Qatar has huge reserves (I think second or  third largest world wide).  
Further, the gas is in formations that are highly concentrated and very 
near the coast, to facilitate collection and shipping.  So its no wonder 
we want a strong military presence there.

> The real energy loser in the fermentation process (after production costs) is 
> concentrating the methanol from a dilute water solution to a fuel quality 
> liquid.
>  
>
I am still interested in learning about a direct process to convert 
glycerin to any type of fuel.

I can do it but not efficiently, certainly not in cost and probably not 
even efficiently on an energy basis:

 Take the glycerin/ NaOH/ methanol soup left over from the biodiesel 
prep and treat it with excess dimethyl sulfate. this will produce  a 
mixture of dimethyl ether (a gas which could be burned to recover 
energy) and 1,2,3- trimethoxypropane, which could used as a blend or 
substitute for gasoline.  I have done it on a very small lab scale to 
show that it works but that is as far as I have gone with the idea.

>Art Krenzel, P.E.
>PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES
>10505 NE 285TH Street
>Battle Ground, WA 98604
>360-666-1883 voice
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>  From: bob allen 
>  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
>  Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 1:45 PM
>  Subject: Re: [biofuel] Making Methanol from Glycerin ( was Re: Biodiesel 
> Glycerin-to-Methanol Condensor plans )
>
>
>  no problem in principle.   Any  starch/sugar/cellulosic material can be 
>  thermally degraded to  to a mixture of gases  and light liquids.(often 
>  referred to as destructive distillation)  Catalytic reforming should 
>  yield methanol.  The only problem, an engineering feat rather than a 
>  chemical problem would be optimizing yield.  On an industrial scale, you 
>  only get about a 50 % energy return going from green timber to 
>  methanol.  A bacterial fermentation may also be possible to produce 
>  methanol or other alcohols from glycerol. 
>
>
>  A
>
>
>  Keith Addison wrote:
>
>  >Hasn't anyone got an answer or some info for Greg? This is an 
>  >interesting possibility, if it is one.
>  >
>  >Best wishes
>  >
>  >Keith
>  >
>  >
>  >  
>  >
>  >>Can anyone spot flaws in my theory?
>  >>
>  >>Greg H.
>  >> ----- Original Message -----
>  >> From: Greg Harbican
>  >> To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>  >> Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 10:14
>  >> Subject: [biofuel] Making Methanol from Glycerin ( was Re: 
>  >>Biodiesel Glycerin-to-Methanol Condensor plans )
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> You know, I wasn't fully awake and definitely was not tracking 
>  >>correctly when I first read the subject line, but, I think that it 
>  >>was probably a good thing.
>  >>
>  >> What I read was Biodiesel Glycerin-to-Methanol ( totally missed 
>  >>the condenser part ), and was thinking that here was a idea that 
>  >>allowed people to use the glycerin by-product to make methanol. 
>  >>When I read the message, I realized that I had made a mistake, but, 
>  >>thinking about that mistake, I thought that it might just be 
>  >>possible.
>  >>
>  >> Now I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but, does 
>  >>not water and glycerin mix well?
>  >>
>  >> Then if that is the case, the solution would be a water / hydrogen 
>  >>& carbon solution, similar to that of sugar water, which according 
>  >>to Walt Patrick mentioned can be used to produce Syn Gas, then 
>  >>converted to methanol.
>  >>
>  >> Please, let me know your thoughts about this possibility.
>  >>
>  >> Greg H.
>  >>    
>  >>
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
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>  -- 
>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>       Bob Allen, Professor of Chemistry
>       http://ozarker.org/bob
>
>
>  Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression;
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-- 
Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob
=========================================================
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral 
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for 
selfishness  JKG



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