Your web sites about how bad Israel is don't mean a lot in this discussion - 
all I'm saying is that if I had an enemy living as close to me as Syria is to 
Israel, I wouldn't let them keep the high ground after they had started 
shelling me from it either - regardless of whether or not they owned it.  Just 
like if someone else's kid shoots me or my property with a BB gun, I take the 
gun away before I inform their parents that they won't get it back.

You can hate Israel or love it as you choose - I don't care how you feel about 
them, but their military strategists are right on in keeping Golan to defend 
themselves against a neighbor who proved themselves to be hostile when they 
began shelling Israel from that position in an effort to destroy Israel.  If I 
were in Israel's shoes, I would do exactly the same thing.

As for the attack on the USS Liberty, I'm no expert and certainly don't believe 
I've heard the whole story just from reading these two web sites, but even if 
these two web sites do tell the whole story, we'd have to see a lot more 
anti-American action from Israel before distancing ourselves from them became 
an even remotely palatable idea.  Just like the French are still our allies 
after the recent discoveries of their illegal arms sales to Saddam Hussein and 
after the "accidental" bombing of the French Embassy in Libya, sometimes human 
beings make flawed decisions and one or two of these is not a reason to sever 
relationships or to have a policy reversal.


-----Original Message-----
From: Gustl Steiner-Zehender [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 4:29 PM
To: Dan Fitzpatrick
Subject: Re[2]: [biofuel] wondering about this comment

Hallo Dan,

Go check out these sites and then come back and defend Israel.

This is the biofuels list and then some.  No topic cops.

Happy Happy,


Tuesday, 15 June, 2004, 13:10:08, you wrote:

DF> I visited Israel recently and toured the Golan among other places. 

DF> The Golan is the perfect place for anyone bent on the destruction of

DF> Israel (like Syria professes to be) to possess so that they can just

DF> drop their artillery shells on the most inhabitted sections of the

DF> country.  That's what they tried to do in 1967 and there is

DF> absolutely no reason for anyone to believe that they will not repeat

DF> that if they ever get the Golan back.  The only way Israel can be

DF> secure is to retain the Golan and keep those people who wish to see Israel 
destroyed off of it.

DF> But isn't this supposed to be the biofuels list?

DF> Dan
DF> -----Original Message-----
DF> From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
DF> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 11:57 AM
DF> To:
DF> Subject: Re: [biofuel] wondering about this comment

DF> Steve,

DF> This is one of the worse things I heard for a long - long time. We

DF> have international laws that regulate this and none is supporting

DF> your and Israel's view  about individual ownership, as you are

DF> stating it. It might have been true some hundreds years ago, but

DF> today ownership must be respected. This have nothing to do with what

DF> the state occupies whoever, they are obliged by international law to

DF> respect individual property rights. An occupier have the obligation

DF> to protect the occupied population and provide a secure environment

DF> in accordance to international law and human rights. Israel does nothing of 
DF> Personally I feel cheated, since I have for so long supported Israel

DF> and its right to live in peace and security. How can this state that

DF> for so long and in such a high degree, solicited and got my support,

DF> commit such crimes today.

DF> Every time I look at what you are saying, it get me more and more

DF> upset and how can anyone be so f-ing stupid. I do not normally get

DF> so upset and it is not good for my health. My friend, you do not fit

DF> in the modern society, with respect for human rights. How can anyone

DF> support land grab and stealing from individuals, who are the victims

DF> of a conflict between states and not personally responsible.

DF> How could you, Israel and the US government develop such a barbarian

DF> view.
DF> The negligence by US to follow the international laws in Iraq, might

DF> be a sign of both the US and Israel ignorance. Leaders and

DF> government  of countries are expected to follow international laws,

DF> if not, they are criminals. Both US and Israel are bound to these

DF> laws and have ratified them, their behavior is not supportable.

DF> Hakan

DF> At 15:43 15/06/2004, you wrote:
>> >I am a neutral observer. To distinguish between what  is just and

>> >what is not. Jews have taken other  peoples' homes and have driven

>> >them out of their land.
>> > i understand that all the arabs have accepted the fact  that Isreal

>> >is to exist. They have offered to live in  peace provided Isreal

>> >returns all the land it stole  from the arabs in 1967. Why have Jews

>> >rejected it?
>>If this person went to work.. made money that he earned would he feel

>>that the money still belongs to his employer?
>>When you capture territories in a war ... they are yours.. not the

>>people you captured it from.  These are the same things..
>>That is why the Jews have rejected giving the land back. It is theirs..

>>they were attacked... they won.
>>End of story... this was not a land grab...this was the spoils of war.

Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns.
Mitglied-Team AMIGA
ICQ: 22211253-Gustli
The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, 
without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. 

C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters"
Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straže liegen, daž sie gerade deshalb 
von der gewÜhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden.
Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. 

George Carlin

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