I don't watch Fox TV nor am I an American. And yes I do believe that 
Bush in many ways is feeding off world problems to stay in power as 
well. Although that doesn't work very well in most democracies does it. 
He may or may not stay in power but he is by no means assured of it by 
his views. In fact going into Iraq was the surest way to put his 
returning to power in jeapordy. If he had just gone into Afganastan he 
would currently be easily crushing Kerry. As was it Blairs best choice 
for continued power in England. All power to democracies. Let's all hope 
the one in Iraq survives with the UN's help.

I find it sad and depressing that you believe everyone who disagrees 
with you must be a preprogrammed idiot. That is an interesting way to 
argue. Although attempting to marginalize people may be effective it 
does not make you right.

Quoting hate sites in order to support your arguement would have as much 
effectiveness as me looking up hate sites to support mine. I will not 
stoop to this kind of filth. In fairness I don't believe you originally 
started linking hate sites Keith.

I am under no illusion that American foreign policy in the Cold war era 
was anything other than: If it wasn't communist it was right. They 
supported rediculous dictators as did the Soviet Union. It was wrong and 
they shouldn't have done it. see paragraph below.

Keith if you take one thing away from this understand this. The enemy of 
my enemy is not my friend. This was explained to me by a muslim whose 
family had been run out of Pakistan by the Sunis.

I wish I lived in your world of black and white. Where problems that 
have been going on for centuries are obviously only the fault of one 
party. When you feel like joining the real world I welcome further 
discourse on this subject.

                                                - bfn - JAW

Keith Addison wrote:

> John Woolsey wrote... a load of total nonsense. A bunch of fact-free 
> opinions only to be found among a particular sector of 
> thoroughly-spun Americans. Whatever would you do without FoxTV John? 
> Learn something maybe? What's always amusing about this stuff is how 
> they they espouse a "balanced" approach and advise against being an 
> easy mark for the "rhetoric", LOL! At least it's amusing if you try, 
> damn' annoying if you don't.
>>I have no intention of defending Isreal.
> ... he said, defending Israel.
>>However the tone of these articles are scary at best. Talking about 
>>motive as being irrelevant, etc, etc. Of course motive is important. 
>>If there is no logical reason for someone to do something most 
>>likely the basic assumptions are flawed.
>>When a war goes on bad things happen. A lot. Ships sink. People die, 
>>etc, etc. If you dig deeply enough you can find something grey and 
>>then proceed to build a case for whatever you want. There is no 
>>black and white in the world. Get used to it and understand it or 
>>you are an easy mark.
>>The fact remains that Isreal was attacked and whatever happened 
>>after that and since was not their doing directly. Yes they could 
>>have acted better and they still can. But then so can the people on 
>>the other sides. They probably have a right to act more paranoid 
>>than anyone else since they are surrounded and no one else is. 
>>Remember everything points to the fact that if they had not been 
>>attacked none of this would have ever happened.
>>Trying to build a case for hate is stupid.
> Yes it is, you shouldn't do it.
>>Take a balanced approach.
> Umm...
>>Remember all of the dictators in that area of the world need you to 
>>hate someone. Isreal, the US, Britain, someone. Because if you don't 
>>then you will start asking too many questions.
> You should try a few questions rather than all these cosy assumptions.
>>Saddam killed a hundred thousand of his own people in a very short 
>>time. How is he defended by people who support him?
> You mean by Reagan and Bush Snr? Rather well. Bush Jnr's numbers are 
> getting quite impressive too, he'll be equalling that achievement 
> soon. Of course the intentionally brutal and murderous sanctions the 
> US insisted on, despite worldwide protests, killed maybe eight times 
> as many, half of them children, an achievement not to be belittled.
>>By fomenting hate.
> True, if you mean Reagan and Bush Snr, and if you don't you should.
>>It is not relevant to who. If you buy into the rhetoric then you 
>>where helping him to kill thousands. He is not unique.
> Nope, indeed not, the US has supported a long and as-yet unending 
> line of brutal and murderous dictators like Saddam.
> Now you're going to say I "hate America" or something. Wrong - as 
> with everything else. I don't like dissembly and obfuscation, whether 
> intentional or unwitting.
> Aarghhh! - it's no use! We've seen this smug and circular line of 
> blather (one of their favourite words) going round and round so 
> often, its internal "logic" hermetically sealed against any hint of 
> that dreadful stuff reality.
> I'm not going to argue with you and I hope nobody else bothers to 
> either, your views do not merit sensible discussion, especially not 
> on an international list with worldwide membership such as this one. 
> It's all in the archives already, long since, go and search out 
> what's been said previously before you preach this crap at people 
> here. I know you won't bother to do that, but unless you do (and do 
> it without simply dismissing or not even seeing anything that might 
> disagree with you) please be aware that the solid ground you're 
> standing on is about as solid as a bog, and so is your credibility 
> here.
> Keith Addison
>>Most of the dictators in the region use this technique and kill many 
>>people. In fact I would go as far as to say most modern dictators do 
>>this. Just start looking for them throughout Africa and Asia. They 
>>all do the same thing. North Korea for example is collapsing because 
>>it is the only communist economy that isn't growing. So they start 
>>building nukes to pick a fight with the world. Remember it was a 
>>north korean diplomat who bragged that caused all of their 
>>'problems'. Also remember that North Korea could easily flatten Sol 
>>in less then half an hour with standard artilary making nukes 
>>totally unessessary for self defense. South Korea would never agree 
>>to fight them because they would be ruined.
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