Hello Bob

>Hi Hakan,
>                With respect to you and Dan, this is a biofuels group, not a
>political discussion seminar.

A false distinction - please see my message to Gregg in this thread.

>If all the hot air generated by the
>Israeli/Arab question were bottled and pipe-fed worldwide we'd could close
>this chatline and run our vehicles forever on the energy.
>For the record, the State of Israel is not recognised by any Arab nation
>other than Egypt.

And Jordan. The U.S-backed "road map" for Middle East peace was based 
partly on a 2002 initiative adopted by the 22-member Arab League 
offering normalized relations with Israel in return for Israeli 
withdrawal from Arab lands and acceptance of Palestinian refugees' 
right of return. Hence Fox's original comment that Steve and others 
are now attacking:

>i understand that all the arabs have accepted the fact
>that Isreal is to exist. They have offered to live in
>peace provided Isreal returns all the land it stole
>from the arabs in 1967. Why have Jews rejected it?

Why indeed? Though it should be Israelis, or better Zionists (since 
it's only a minority of Israelis), not Jews.

>Worse, they have official policies in place to destroy it.

They did have. Faced with US-Israeli intransigence, they could well have again.

>Whatever your view you can only join one side or the other.

Not so, no matter how polarised it's become, as with all issues it's 
still possible, and indeed most important, to make an independent 
appraisal. Any story has a lot more than two sides to it, life's 
always much richer than that, there are always many different aspects 
to it and different factors at work, it doesn't stay the same, it 
keeps shifting and changing, each aspect needs a new appraisal as 
best we can. Choosing "sides" in such issues is to lock-step into 
some form of "my country right or wrong" view that soon becomes 
emotional, if it wasn't already, and is sterile and benighted, if not 
downright evil in its effects. Labelling people as "pro-Israel" or 
"anti-Israel" (or Arab or whatever) in issues such as this might 
apply to those who've succumbed to the considerable forces at work to 
polarise people's views and keep them that way, but not to the rest 
of us.

In fact this is a good and relevant place to discuss these issues, 
especially as they relate to oil, which they do, very much so. 
Intensely political stuff is oil, and therefore so is biofuel.

>Allotting blame
>is pointless.

Indeed. Clarifying what has happened and who did what to whom and why 
is however not necessarily merely a blame game, it's crucial to 
understanding the issues. When one-sided views or history-free views 
are offered, as so often on Middle East issues, the history has to be 
spelled out. Try these, for instance:

The Blame Game

We Had a Democracy Once, But You Crushed It

Iran and the Forgotten Anniversary

Interview With Stephen Kinzer, Author Of All The Shah's Men

Playing the blame card is what these other guys are doing saying the 
Arabs attacked Israel, which they did, in 1948, so therefore anything 
Israel's done since then is okay, but somehow they omit to state that 
Israel has attacked the Arabs just as often as the Arabs have 
attacked Israel, which makes it somewhat less cut-and-dried than they 
like to think. A twisted view. But that "side" likes the blame card, 
for obvious reasons.

>The war, which started with Abraham and his sheepherders
>moving into Canaan (Israel) some 4,000 years ago, will continue until one
>side or the other runs out of motivation (i.e.dollars or energy).

One view, there are others.

>Until then, let's get back to biofuels.

We have not departed from biofuels issues.

Best wishes


>Regards to you both.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 1:12 PM
>Subject: RE: [biofuel] wondering about this comment
> >
> > Dan,
> >
> > I fail to see how you can make such an answer to what I said. What you are
> > saying have nothing at all to do with the issues that I bring up in my
> > posting. This about most inhabited part of the country, have you ever been
> > visiting Israel? Do you really understand the geography and can you get
> > further away from Palestinians, than this corner part of Golan heights and
> > Lebanese/Syrian border? Why do you have to say this ignorant things, it
> > attacks my naive beliefs on the superior human intellect.
> >
> > Hakan
> >
> >
> > At 19:10 15/06/2004, you wrote:
> >
> > >I visited Israel recently and toured the Golan among other places.  The
> > >Golan is the perfect place for anyone bent on the destruction of Israel
> > >(like Syria professes to be) to possess so that they can just drop their
> > >artillery shells on the most inhabitted sections of the country.  That's
> > >what they tried to do in 1967 and there is absolutely no reason for
> > >anyone to believe that they will not repeat that if they ever get the
> > >Golan back.  The only way Israel can be secure is to retain the Golan
> > >and keep those people who wish to see Israel destroyed off of it.
> > >
> > >But isn't this supposed to be the biofuels list?
> > >
> > >Dan
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 11:57 AM
> > >To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] wondering about this comment
> > >
> > >
> > >Steve,
> > >
> > >This is one of the worse things I heard for a long - long time. We have
> > >international laws that regulate this and none is supporting your and
> > >Israel's view  about individual ownership, as you are stating it. It
> > >might have been true some hundreds years ago, but today ownership must
> > >be respected. This have nothing to do with what the state occupies
> > >whoever, they are obliged by international law to respect individual
> > >property rights. An occupier have the obligation to protect the occupied
> > >population and provide a secure environment in accordance to
> > >international law and human rights. Israel does nothing of either.
> > >Personally I feel cheated, since I have for so long supported Israel and
> > >its right to live in peace and security. How can this state that for so
> > >long and in such a high degree, solicited and got my support, commit
> > >such crimes today.
> > >
> > >Every time I look at what you are saying, it get me more and more upset
> > >and how can anyone be so f-ing stupid. I do not normally get so upset
> > >and it is not good for my health. My friend, you do not fit in the
> > >modern society, with respect for human rights. How can anyone support
> > >land grab and stealing from individuals, who are the victims of a
> > >conflict between states and not personally responsible.
> > >
> > >How could you, Israel and the US government develop such a barbarian
> > >view.
> > >The negligence by US to follow the international laws in Iraq, might be
> > >a sign of both the US and Israel ignorance. Leaders and government  of
> > >countries are expected to follow international laws, if not, they are
> > >criminals. Both US and Israel are bound to these laws and have ratified
> > >them, their behavior is not supportable.
> > >
> > >Hakan
> > >
> > >At 15:43 15/06/2004, you wrote:
> > > > >I am a neutral observer. To distinguish between what  is just and
> > > > >what is not. Jews have taken other  peoples' homes and have driven
> > > > >them out of their land.
> > > > > i understand that all the arabs have accepted the fact  that Isreal
> > > > >is to exist. They have offered to live in  peace provided Isreal
> > > > >returns all the land it stole  from the arabs in 1967. Why have Jews
> > > > >rejected it?
> > > >
> > > >If this person went to work.. made money that he earned would he feel
> > > >that the money still belongs to his employer?
> > > >
> > > >When you capture territories in a war ... they are yours.. not the
> > > >people you captured it from.  These are the same things..
> > > >
> > > >That is why the Jews have rejected giving the land back. It is theirs..
> > >
> > > >they were attacked... they won.
> > > >
> > > >End of story... this was not a land grab...this was the spoils of war.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Biofuels list archives:
> > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
> >
> > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>Biofuels list archives:
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