Hello Gregg

>Keith, may I ask a fool question? Is this a newsgroup that is mainly 
>about alternative fuels, or is it a political outlet for folks that 
>wouldn't be happy no matter what? I am getting very tired of reading 
>all the negative personal politics

Pardon me, but all that means is "stuff I don't agree with".

>of some of the members. I know this is a free country

This is not a free country, this is not a country at all, this is the 
global Internet, and this mailing list has a large international 
membership with members from more than a hundred countries and just 
about every culture. You're an American, right? Americans are just a 
minority here, though a valued one. It's strange to have to say it 
but that comes as a big surprise to some Americans, and some fail to 
adapt to it.

>& they have the right to express their views, but I ALSO have the 
>right to express my opinion by saying "I've heard enough of your 
>nonsense, so sit down & shut your pie-hole!" when it gets out of 
>hand.

In your view, but as to whether you have the "right" to express it, 
you can express it, but people don't have automatic, inalienable 
"rights" here. This is not a public place, it's more like a private 
club, you have to join, joining gives you privileges, not "rights", 
with the privileges come obligations, if you ignore the obligations 
you lose the privileges, just like any other club.

Now, first, nobody's forcing you to read anything, messages have 
subject lines after all. If you don't know how to handle a mailing 
list maybe this will help you:
http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/21700/

Second, as to your either/or question above, here are a couple of the 
many previous views expressed on this, by Americans:

> > What on earth does this have to do with biofuels?
>
>A lot more than one might think off the cuff, especially when it comes to
>who makes the decisions that let you run biofuel on a roadway or not.

Another:

>The problems are compounded by many years of fundamentally flawed 
>energy policy, and that's the reason why this discussion BELONGS on 
>a biofuels list.

And:

>Political discussion is VITAL to the future of biofuels.

And:

>For a copy of our anti-war/biodiesel alternatives factsheet, please see:
>http://www.veggieavenger.com/news/news.shtml

Etc etc etc. It's not either/or, so-called "political" discussion is 
never more than a minority of posts, all kinds of biofuels 
discussions continue all the while nonetheless, and in fact the two 
things are complementary.

As to whether it's got "out of hand" as you claim, the original title 
of this thread was "Oil and Israel", and it shouldn't have been 
changed. Here's the whole thread:
http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/34947/1

Off-topic you think? With such a wide-ranging membership, what's on- 
or off-topic is very much a matter of opinion. As it is now, the 
critical role played by Israel in the Middle East, in US policy in 
the Middle East, and especially of all this in oil politics (yes!), 
is not discussed nearly enough, especially in the US, mainly because 
every time someone tries to do so in public they get attacked and 
often threatened for criticising Israel > being anti-Semites > being 
Nazis who're full of hate and so on (it all happened right here) - 
while, even more obnoxiously, this is used to cloak just such 
behaviour in Israel as these people are accusing others of fomenting. 
That will no longer happen here, that was the outcome of this thread 
(before Steve went and reopened it in such a foolish way). This is 
now a colonial Zionist-spin-free zone where such crucial issues as 
"Oil and Israel" can freely be discussed without fear or favour.

As I've just said in another message, it's a *Biofuel* list, not just 
a biodiesel list or something - all energy issues are relevant to 
biofuels discussions. That is a long-established tradition of this 
list, much discussed and endorsed by the majority of the list 
membership. That said, it's also the best place for discussion and 
information on making and using biodiesel, as many have found. The 
list has helped many people from being rank newbies to making 
ASTM-grade biodiesel within only a few months. All biofuels are 
discussed here, there's room for everything.

There aren't a lot of rules, beyond the usual ones that don't (or at 
least shouldn't) need spelling out - ordinary Netiquette, the 
universal rules of social discourse, that discussion should be 
even-handed and honest. These are mature people, they know how to 
behave (mostly!), when they do stray truly off-topic it seldom goes 
too far, they don't need a list-nanny bossing them around. So the 
discussion here is open. And there are two rules about that:

NO TOPIC COPS.
NO CALLS FOR RESTRICTED DISCUSSION.

It's my job to enforce those rules, which I do. You get one warning, 
this is it.

If you have biofuels questions, go ahead and ask, if there's 
something you want to discuss, nothing's stopping you, if you have 
information to offer please do so. But don't try to restrict 
discussion - it's a discussion list, not a less-discussion list.

Best wishes

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel list owner


>Gregg
>
>
>
>Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Steve wrote:
>
> > >I am a neutral observer. To distinguish between what
> > > is just and what is not. Jews have taken other
> > > peoples' homes and have driven them out of their land.
> > > i understand that all the arabs have accepted the fact
> > > that Isreal is to exist. They have offered to live in
> > > peace provided Isreal returns all the land it stole
> > > from the arabs in 1967. Why have Jews rejected it?
> >
> >If this person went to work.. made money that he earned would he feel
> >that the money still belongs to his employer?
>
>Wow, what a superficial view. A barbaric view actually. You really
>see no difference between paid employment and an army of occupation?
>What a cosy view you have of what happens in the world. You spend
>your life in an armchair atop an ivory tower? Applying this "logic"
>of yours, if a bank teller on his day off pulled a successful armed
>robbery at his bank, heisting a few million or so and killing a
>couple of other employees in the doing, by rights it's his money, eh?
>It's the bank's own fault for not paying him more, and the collateral
>damage folks' fault for getting in the way. End of story? I can
>understand why Hakan got so angry with you.
>
> >When you capture territories in a war ... they are yours.. not the
> >people you captured it from.  These are the same things..
>
>"Might is right". That's the caveman's way, brother - and it's much
>to be doubted that even cavemen (who almost certainly didn't live in
>caves) held to that view. Much more likely they were cooperative
>folks like the rest of us. Or the rest of us that aren't psychopaths
>anyway. That the psychopathic school of world statesmanship has been
>getting a dose of steroids from certain quarters in the last couple
>of years doesn't make it any the less psychopathic, and a goodly
>proportion of those same steroids can be sourced straight back to
>these same psychopaths you're defending.
>
> >That is why the Jews have rejected giving the land back.
>
>Israelis. Some Israelis, increasingly rejected and vilified by other Israelis.
>
> >It is
> >theirs.. they were attacked... they won.
>
>They were attacked? The other guy started it you think? You think who
>or what started it is what counts?
>
> >End of story... this was not a land grab...this was the spoils of war.
>
>Well, you got yourself into this, most ill-advisedly, I'm wondering
>how you're going to get yourself out of it again with any credibility
>left, and doubt that you will. I suggest you check out the previous
>messages in the thread, though I doubt that you'll bother - more fool
>you, if not:
>http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/34947/1
>
>Warning: don't waste everybody's time and annoy people by trundling
>out arguments that have already been dealt with. Go and do your
>homework first.
>
>I wonder too why you changed the title. It was "Oil and Israel".
>
>Keith Addison
>Journey to Forever
>http://journeytoforever.org/
>List owner



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