Hallo Dan,

Tuesday, 15 June, 2004, 18:07:50, you wrote:


DF> Your  web  sites  about how bad Israel is don't mean a lot in this
DF> discussion  -  all  I'm saying is that if I had an enemy living as
DF> close  to  me  as Syria is to Israel, I wouldn't let them keep the
DF> high  ground  after  they had started shelling me from it either -
DF> regardless  of  whether or not they owned it. Just like if someone
DF> else's  kid shoots me or my property with a BB gun, I take the gun
DF> away before I inform their parents that they won't get it back.

I  can see that you did not bother to read much on the sites. They are
not  about  "how  bad  Israel  is",  but  how Israel intentionally and
without  provocation attacked the USS Liberty, an unarmed surveillance
vessel,  and  killed 34 and wounded 172 US servicemen. This is how the
"best friend" of the US treats us. That was not Iraqis or Palestinians
killing  our men. If this is how Israel treats its "friends" I shudder
to  imagine  how  it  treats those it considers enemies, and in fact I
don't  have  to  imagine  as  it  is  done  arrogantly  and openly and
defiantly without apology.

DF> You  can  hate  Israel or love it as you choose - I don't care how
DF> you  feel  about them, but their military strategists are right on
DF> in  keeping  Golan  to  defend  themselves  against a neighbor who
DF> proved  themselves  to  be hostile when they began shelling Israel
DF> from  that  position  in an effort to destroy Israel. If I were in
DF> Israel's shoes, I would do exactly the same thing.

This  is  not  a  matter  of love or hate but of right or wrong.  Your
knowledge  of history is lacking and skewed and if you are as cavalier
in  writing  off the deaths of Palestinians and others with reasonable
and  justified  grievances against Israel as you are at dismissing the
reprehensible  attack  on  the Liberty then the same can be said about
your moral and ethical sensibilities.

DF> As  for the attack on the USS Liberty, I'm no expert and certainly
DF> don't  believe  I've heard the whole story just from reading these
DF> two  web  sites, but even if these two web sites do tell the whole
DF> story,  we'd  have  to  see  a  lot more anti-American action from
DF> Israel  before  distancing  ourselves  from  them  became  an even
DF> remotely palatable idea. Just like the French are still our allies
DF> after the recent discoveries of their illegal arms sales to Saddam
DF> Hussein  and  after the "accidental" bombing of the French Embassy
DF> in  Libya, sometimes human beings make flawed decisions and one or
DF> two  of  these is not a reason to sever relationships or to have a
DF> policy reversal.

We  are  not  speaking of one or two flawed decisions.  We are talking
about  the  terrorist  actions of a rogue state-Israel.  More and more
Israelis  are  waking  up to how evil their government is and the evil
acts it perpetrates.

I  don't know how much more anti-American activity is needed.  Nuclear
secrets  stolen,  34  dead  and  172  wounded  US  servicemen, selling
classified  US  technology  to third parties.  And the question is not
whether  their  activities  are anti-American or not, but whether they
are  moral and justified or not.  By any decent standard they are not.

As for those web sites. Jim Ennes was the XO of Liberty at the time of
the  attack and John Gidusko was a Communications Technician. They are
both  members  of the NCVA which is a veterans organization limited to
people  serving  under  NSA/NSG  command. The information they provide
doesn't  come  any  straighter. It is certainly truthful as opposed to
the  official  US  and  Israeli  versions. The crew of the Liberty was
ordered  not  to  speak  of  the Israeli attack while they were in the
military but they aren't bound by those orders now.

I served aboard USS Oxford (AGTR-1) which was a sister ship of Liberty
and  know  the caliber of men who served aboard the technical research
vessels.  They  don't  come  any  better.   I  also  know  that if the
government  has any dirty laundry they want to keep from its citizenry
that  they  just  slap  a  classification  on  it  with a GP-4 (do not
automatically  downgrade and declassify) and it is unavailable and can
only  be downgraded and declassified by the person who originally gave
it the classification in the first place.  Classifying information for
political rather than legitimate security reasons is nothing new.

As you apparently did not give a thorough examination of the two url's
I  provided  perhaps  you  would like to try http://www.ussliberty.org
which is the offical Liberty site and give some serious thought to the
question  of  if  this  is  how Israel treats "friends" then how is it
treating  "enemies".   Also,  the  bottom line and long time political
relations ought not be considerations when we are speaking of life and
death  matters  whether it concerns Israel, France, Canada or whomever
else.  One life is just as precious as another.

And  also  as  Keith has said, this subject has been pretty well taken
care of and is available in the archives.

Happy Happy,

Gustl
DF> Dan

DF> -----Original Message-----
DF> From: Gustl Steiner-Zehender [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

DF> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 4:29 PM
DF> To: Dan Fitzpatrick
DF> Subject: Re[2]: [biofuel] wondering about this comment

DF> Hallo Dan,

DF> Go check out these sites and then come back and defend Israel.

DF> http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0693/9306019.htm

DF> http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/

DF> This is the biofuels list and then some.  No topic cops.

DF> Happy Happy,

DF> Gustl

DF> Tuesday, 15 June, 2004, 13:10:08, you wrote:


DF>> I visited Israel recently and toured the Golan among other places. 

DF>> The Golan is the perfect place for anyone bent on the destruction of

DF>> Israel (like Syria professes to be) to possess so that they can just

DF>> drop their artillery shells on the most inhabitted sections of the

DF>> country.  That's what they tried to do in 1967 and there is

DF>> absolutely no reason for anyone to believe that they will not repeat

DF>> that if they ever get the Golan back.  The only way Israel can be

DF>> secure is to retain the Golan and keep those people who wish to see Israel 
destroyed off of it.

DF>> But isn't this supposed to be the biofuels list?

DF>> Dan
DF>> -----Original Message-----
DF>> From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
DF>> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 11:57 AM
DF>> To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
DF>> Subject: Re: [biofuel] wondering about this comment


DF>> Steve,

DF>> This is one of the worse things I heard for a long - long time. We

DF>> have international laws that regulate this and none is supporting

DF>> your and Israel's view  about individual ownership, as you are

DF>> stating it. It might have been true some hundreds years ago, but

DF>> today ownership must be respected. This have nothing to do with what

DF>> the state occupies whoever, they are obliged by international law to

DF>> respect individual property rights. An occupier have the obligation

DF>> to protect the occupied population and provide a secure environment

DF>> in accordance to international law and human rights. Israel does nothing 
of either.
DF>> Personally I feel cheated, since I have for so long supported Israel

DF>> and its right to live in peace and security. How can this state that

DF>> for so long and in such a high degree, solicited and got my support,

DF>> commit such crimes today.

DF>> Every time I look at what you are saying, it get me more and more

DF>> upset and how can anyone be so f-ing stupid. I do not normally get

DF>> so upset and it is not good for my health. My friend, you do not fit

DF>> in the modern society, with respect for human rights. How can anyone

DF>> support land grab and stealing from individuals, who are the victims

DF>> of a conflict between states and not personally responsible.

DF>> How could you, Israel and the US government develop such a barbarian

DF>> view.
DF>> The negligence by US to follow the international laws in Iraq, might

DF>> be a sign of both the US and Israel ignorance. Leaders and

DF>> government  of countries are expected to follow international laws,

DF>> if not, they are criminals. Both US and Israel are bound to these

DF>> laws and have ratified them, their behavior is not supportable.

DF>> Hakan

DF>> At 15:43 15/06/2004, you wrote:
>>> >I am a neutral observer. To distinguish between what  is just and

>>> >what is not. Jews have taken other  peoples' homes and have driven

>>> >them out of their land.
>>> > i understand that all the arabs have accepted the fact  that Isreal

>>> >is to exist. They have offered to live in  peace provided Isreal

>>> >returns all the land it stole  from the arabs in 1967. Why have Jews

>>> >rejected it?
>>>
>>>If this person went to work.. made money that he earned would he feel

>>>that the money still belongs to his employer?
>>>
>>>When you capture territories in a war ... they are yours.. not the

>>>people you captured it from.  These are the same things..
>>>
>>>That is why the Jews have rejected giving the land back. It is theirs..

>>>they were attacked... they won.
>>>
>>>End of story... this was not a land grab...this was the spoils of war.


DF> --
DF> Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns.
DF> Mitglied-Team AMIGA
DF> ICQ: 22211253-Gustli
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underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. 

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-- 
Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns.
Mitglied-Team AMIGA
ICQ: 22211253-Gustli
********
The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, 
soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, 
without signposts.  
C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters"
********
Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straže liegen, 
daž sie gerade deshalb von der gewÜhnlichen Welt nicht 
gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden.
********
Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't
hear the music.  
George Carlin





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