From my limited experience in Latin America I always felt the EV's were making inroads because they had enough sense to actually have local people in positions of authority, where as most (not all, Jaime Sin comes to mind) Catholic big-wigs were white. I will say that when I was working in Africa the CRS people were very good.
Mike "Lapsed Unitarian" Weaver Keith Addison wrote: >Hello Taryn > > > >>Hi Keith, et alii. >> >>On Aug 30, 2005, at 3:35 AM, Keith Addison wrote: >> >> >> >>>Hello Taryn, Pannirselvam >>> >>>Did you read this? >>> >>>http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 >>>5-August/003230.html >>>Or: >>>http://snipurl.com/hb3u >>>[Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers >>>"Who Would Jesus Assassinate? Hugo Chavez and the Men Who Claim to >>>Speak for Jesus" >>> >>> >>> >>Yes, I did read them. Following them, or a similar thread, (now >>misplaced) >> >> > >:-( The browser history keeps the urls, why doesn't it keep the whole threads? > > > >>led me to some striking information regarding the US's >>post-war anti-communist efforts in Italy, and later in Latin America. >>Following that taught me more about the role of the jesuits, and >>liberation theology, in Latin American politics. >> >>Trying to recover that misplaced thread last night led to many sites >>accusing liberation theologists of being pawns of the communists. Then >>to some ugly accusations regarding the role of the jesuits in bringing >>together the Vatican and the National Socialists (Nazis) in pre-war >>Germany. Of course, the German National Socialist Party was socialist >>in name only by the 1940s. >> >> > >Isn't it great when that happens? Almost makes it worth losing the >original threads. > >It was interesting how few of the commentators when John Paul II died >mentioned his opposition to the liberation theologists, seemed they'd >forgotten about it. He was extremely anti-communist, and Marxist >theology was (is?) the alternate name of liberation theology. John >Paul II was Polish, and his main focus was on Poland and Lech >Walesa's Solidarity struggle there, with the never quite suppressed >Catholic Church playing its role, probably a pivotal one. What >happened in Poland on the one hand and Afghanistan on the other were >the death of the USSR, I guess Latin America seemed hardly even a >side-show. What's happening to the US now with Hugo Chavez in >Venezuela on the one hand and Iraq on the other makes an interesting >comparison, and Latin America perhaps isn't a side-show anymore. (I'd >bet the KGB wanted to assassinate Walesa too.) > >I didn't forget about John Paul II and the liberation theologists. I >thought it was a crossroads, and the Pope sided with the rich and >powerful. Again. Quite apart from what it says about the Catholic >Church as a Christian organisation and the eyes of needles, it could >perhaps have been a chance to change the whole paradigm of >development and the poor. That's what the Jesuits wanted. Instead we >got neo-liberal economics and corporate globalization, and a billion >or so poor and starving people in a world of plenty. I reckon Robert >Johnson made a better deal. > >I've never had any contact with Opus Dei and I'm not sad about that, >but I haven't met a Jesuit I didn't like. > > > >>So, I too, learn more of the twisted history that led to our bizarre >>predicaments of today, reading the Biofuel list. It is truly a great >>resource, let me add my thanks to that expressed by Doug and >>Pannirselvam. (and many others) >> >> > >Thanks to all! > > > >>In one more strange twist of fate, the venues that bring us all >>together; ethernet, bsd servers, and the internet, were developed with >>much funding from ARPA, >><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ >>Defense_Advanced_Research_Projects_Agency> which was created to respond >>to "The Communist Threat". Now of course the internet is one of our >>best tools for responding to the "Capitalist Threat". >> >> > >It escaped. For once at least the end wasn't implicit in the means. >Maybe we'll end up using swords as ploughshares after all. (Only I >don't like ploughs!) > > > >>Regarding the "Clash of Civilisations", it's astonishing that >>Christians, Jews, and Muslims, all worshipping the same God of Israel, >>have been at each others throats, squabbling over the parched scraps of >>a long gone society, for more than a thousand years. For anyone >>perplexed over this conflict, I highly recommend Tom Robbins' "Skinny >>Legs and All". >><http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553377884> I've re-read >>this a few times in my struggles to understand the middle east. It is >>illuminating, to say the least. If you've not read Robbins' stuff >>before, you might want start with a few of his earlier works, e.g. >>"Still Life with Woodpecker" or "Jitterbug Perfume", since his work is >>rich and complex. >> >> > >Thankyou. Interesting reviews. > >You might find this interesting, though probably the only thing it >has in common with "Skinny Legs and All" is the Middle East and the >Arabs: > >21. A Kingdom of Agricultural Art in Europe >http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Wrench_Recon/Wrench_Recon_21.html > >22. An Historical Reconstruction >http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Wrench_Recon/Wrench_Recon_22.html > > > >>Again, thanks to all here who help us see past the veils, to a larger >>world. >> >> > >Thanks indeed. > >(And yes indeed, "Get a Mac"!) > >Best wishes > >Keith > > > > >>Taryn >>ornae.com >> >> >> >>>I was wanting to say something about liberation theology but I posted >>>that instead. >>> >>>By the way, here's Doug's post, "Religion, Politics Biofuels, and >>>Thanks!": >>> >>>http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 >>>5-August/003279.html >>>Or: >>>http://snipurl.com/hb3w >>> >>>I don't want to interpret, but I think what Doug's talking about is >>>mainly how religion-of-a-sort is driving politics and the other >>>issues in the US and in US foreign policy, along with the nonsense >>>about the US and Islam, the odious "Clash of Civilisations" type of >>>thinking and so on, and maybe the strange marriage of "Christian >>>Zionists" in the US and colonial Zionism in Israel and its effects on >>>politics, foreign policy, Middle East oil and all the fish. >>> >>>On the other hand, there's India and Pakistan, who should surely be >>>brothers rather than nuclear enemies... They don't seem to refer to >>>each other as Indians and Pakistanis as often as Hindus and Muslims. >>>Isn't it time to seek to bury the hatchet somewhere else than in each >>>other's heads? >>> >>>Best wishes >>> >>>Keith >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Hello Pannirselvam, >>>> >>>>Forgive me for taking exception to some things you said to Doug. I've >>>> >>>> >>>>... >>>> >>>> >>>>American Evangelical Fundamentalist sects are also gaining power in >>>>Latin America, and they too are a constant source of AIDS >>>>misinformation. As they have no history of liberation theology, we can >>>>be sure that their missions will be bound to NeoCon goals. >>>> >>>>I certainly agree with your suspicions about corporate and media power >>>>being used to suppress democratic processes all over the world, but I >>>>suspect that the church often falls on the wrong side of this battle, >>>>they have usually supported the economic elite in class struggles, >>>>even >>>>as their missionaries were striving to help the poor and dispossessed. >>>> >>>>I know you're 'on the ground' in Brazil, and you're seeing many >>>>courageous, dedicated christians doing good works, against great odds. >>>>I guess I'm trying to say that you're seeing those with 'true religion >>>>with ethics and also true democratic politics' actually doing what >>>>needs doing. Those who send them often have other goals. >>>> >>>>Taryn >>>>ornae.com >>>> >>>> >>>>On Aug 29, 2005, at 5:35 PM, Pannirselvam P.V wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Dear Doug Swanson >>>>> >>>>> I appreciate your well thoughtful letter regarding >>>>>our >>>>>list.But I am not able to fully understand yet that religion >>>>>develop illusion as I native of India , presently in Brazil . >>>>>Here religion always do better thing , the school , the hospital , >>>>>the project for the poor people . I believe the illusion are made >>>>>by Big Blue Corporate company against true religion with ethics and >>>>>also true democratic politics using money power making the >>>>>illusions. >>>>> Surely all are inter related and I agree with you that Biofuel >>>>>bring the people together independent of politics and religions >>>>>showing the truth and showing the green way and great future for >>>>>global sustainability. >>>>> >>>>> sd >>>>> Pannirselvam P.V. >>>>> >>>>>On 8/27/05, des <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>politics lately; as well as the diversity in the biofuels >>>>>>subjects. (I >>>>>> >>>>>> > > >_______________________________________________ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
