Between this post and George's, the issue of staffing is pretty well covered. From a producer's perspective, time is clearly an issue. Some evidently have the time to frequent more than one market, while others can hardly justify the time to be at one. Particularly for small producers, being able to pool one's produce and have someone else sell it (or take turns with others staffing a booth) makes sense. Unless the policy has changed, this collective selling is prohibited at the Ithaca Farmers Market. It therefore represents an unmet need that could be addressed at another site.
The alternative of supplying small local stores has its appeal. The reason farmers markets exist at all is to improve the profitability for the farmers by cutting out the middlemen and women. Particularly for smaller producers, the difference between selling at retail and wholesale can make or break an operation -- provided the staffing and overhead for a market stall can be addressed cost-effectively. Add to the mix the reality that some farmers really would prefer to grow stuff than sell it direct and the picture is diverse and complicated. All of the options we have been discussing existed prior to cheap oil, and it is likely all will reoccur (barring regulatory exclusion) as energy costs rise. One obvious question, though, is which are most viable in the short run? Farmers markets have a record of success -- soon to be challenged by cost-conscious recession-pressed buyers. Small local stores may be becoming viable again, but they are apt to face some tough sledding in the next few years of recession and cheap oil. Joel At 05:20 PM 10/16/08 -0400, you wrote: >i've been thinking more about this and decided to put an alternate >proposal out there that someone else mentioned. what about small >community markets (stores) that serve different parts of the city? >there are many food processors and farms that have been thinking >about this possibility (that i've heard about in the past few months) >and i think there are some simple benefits for everyone. first is >that the same farms/processors can supply many of the stores. given >a large enough pool of farmers, there can be both farm staffing and/ >or paid staffing of the stores. stores can be customized to serve >the area as there are bound to be different items that are popular in >different areas. (would ham hocks sell in your community? my >neighbors say they love them!) > >a local business woman and landlord contacted me recently saying she >was looking for a local business to move into one of her newly >vacated storefronts. she is looking for a food/beverage business. i >can think of another storefront over in fall creek that people have >been showing an interest in doing a community store in. > >not to take the steam out of the centralized market idea- just that >if a farm store/market idea were to move forward i think lots of >ideas should be considered before one is put into place. > >-marlo >On Oct 16, 2008, at 3:06 PM, Lyn Gerry wrote: > > > Dear All, > > > > The question of locally available food and other items year round is a > > question my co-manager and I have been talking about - we > > organized the > > Watkins Glen Farmers Market specifically to address food security and > > sustainability issues. > > > > A few observations based on my experience of the various issues, > > because I > > think parking, addressed extensively by several list members, > > perhaps is the > > least of them. Here's some things that come to mind: > > > > #1!Bear in mind that any particular farmer will ususally not be > > able to come > > to market daily. Unlike Lancaster, where I imagine many of the > > farmers are > > from the Amish and Menonite communities and have large families and > > cooperate, most non-memonite farmers have their hands full even > > attending > > a market a couple of days a week and still keeping up with work on > > the farm. > > So, the actual vendors you have in the stalls will probably rotate and > > someone will need to keep track of that. You'll probably have to pay > > someone - we do our market as volunteers but its only once a week, > > for 5 > > months of the year. > > > > > > #2 The Laws - once actually starting a market we found that the > > laws are > > structured to make it really hard for very small operations and > > people starting > > out. These laws are instituted in the name of protecting the public > > from > > unsafe food, but whether by design or no, they encourage the > > corporatization > > and centralization of food and agriculture. (Although I was recently > > researching something on the Town of ithaca web site and was > > astonished > > to learn that it is illegal for more than three "unrelated" people > > to live > > together! How do they justify that? No idea how unrelated is > > defined but > > anyway, there are some really absurd and appalling laws on the books) > > > > Some people are doing greenhouses, or storing roots and other cool > > weather crops; other than that nothing's growing during a good deal > > of the > > year. That leaves us, as we will be eating in season, with canned > > and frozen > > vegetables, grains, meats, dairy and eggs for those who eat such > > things, and > > baked and other prepared foods and condiments. ( I am assuming that we > > are talking strictly local origin). > > > > Farmers can sell jams and jellies without any special license, but > > pretty > > much everything else requires having your recipe and process > > approved by > > the Ag station in you are going to can or bottle. This costs about > > 200 dollars I > > believe for each recipe. Once approved its good forever but the > > problem is > > you have to do it with each "recipe" - any change of ingredient > > requires a > > new license, so if you want to sell canned tomatoes, that's one > > license. If you > > want to sell canned tomatoes with basil, that's another license. > > Someone > > that wants to stock their booth with canned tomatoes, corn, > > greenbeans, > > pumpkin and asparagus, for example, is looking at 1000 in licenses > > just to > > start. Therefore, if you're talking about public funding, you > > should include > > having the city pick up the tab for this. I think an argument can > > be made that > > encouraging local food processors expands ther viability of family > > farms in > > the area and thereby creates value for everybody with increased food > > security and sustainability. > > > > The US Dept of AG has launched an attack on small abbatoirs. Shirks in > > Dundee, who butchers and processes meat for most of the local farmers > > around here has been told they are not in compliance with some new > > federal > > law, which they must be in order for the farmer to sell the meat > > retail at > > farmers markets. No one has gotten sick from meat from there that > > I've ever > > heard of , but because of the poisoned shit from factory farms, > > some new > > law was put into place whose costs of compliance are prohibitive > > for a family > > operation like Shirks. My meat vendor says she'll only be able to sell > > "custom" meat from Shirks, meaning that people place orders > > directly from > > her for half a side of beef etc (apologies to vegans here), and > > come to the > > farm to pick it up. I'm sure everyone is aware of the hell > > Meadowsweet is > > undergoing. > > > > I was amazed to discover the amount of different licenses and rules > > market > > vendors must comply with, as well as confusing the panoply of > > federal, state > > and local entities with jurisdiction to license and enforce. > > > > > > #3 We have to make sure we still have farms that can produce clean > > food, > > because the gas drillers want to turn farmland to wasteland so they > > can > > make big bucks, and they are being aided and abetted by our so-called > > representatives in Albany. > > > > I'm concerned that as it is, outside of milk and grapes, we don't > > actually even > > produce enough food around here to feed everybody. A very small > > percent > > of the population, maybe only one or two percent seems to actually > > shop at > > farmers markets. Though they are growing in popularity and > > springing up all > > over the, most of the markets share vendors among them - most of our > > vendors do several markets a week or run upick or stands at their > > farms. I > > have heard that even the well established Ithaca market was having > > trouble > > getting farmers, and had to relax its rules. The Ithaca market is > > very large, > > but if you really take stock, many of the vendors are artisans or > > restaurants. > > > > Some of the barriers to creating more farmers are tax laws that don't > > consider you an actual farmer unless you make 10 grand in farming a > > year, > > which takes a while to work up to. Meanwhile, when you need money the > > most, at start up, the tax breaks aren't there. > > > > Then there is the is the nearly ubiquitous liability insurance > > problem. We hold > > our market in a village park, and the village requires each of our > > vendors to > > maintain 300 hundred thousand dollars worth of liability. This sort > > of thing is > > usually included in "farm" policies, but not in "homeowner" ones. > > When we > > started the market we hoped to space where home gardners could show up > > with excess, learn the ropes and then transition to market > > gardening. The > > insurance thing made it impossible for people like this to > > particpate as they > > would have to pay 150-200 dollars up front, which nobody can do > > just to sell > > a few crates of vegetables. Even the farmers market federation does > > not > > have group policies that will enable a market to provide coverage > > to facilitate > > this. A market like Ithaca can do that because they own the land > > and can > > insure the entire premises the way any business would. So, you need > > to find > > a way to have the market come under the city's general liability > > insurance, or > > be able to foem some sort of non-profit umbrella that is able to > > take care of > > this. You would not believe how much paperwork we have to do just in > > association with a small town market with 15-20 vendors! > > I do think that having a market encourages people to try their hand - > > becoming an independent farmer or artisan in a dream many people have, > > and more more will do in desperation as the Depression deepens (I > > think it > > will) The Commons itself is a great place and should be doing > > better than it > > is, but few of the stores there actually own the buildings they're > > in and I > > understand there is a serious problem with rents that are too high or > > resemble exploding ARM's in they they lure small business in , then > > once the > > business has made the investment to set up shop and sunk their life > > savinfs > > into the effort ect, they jack up the rents. If the commons were a > > real > > commons (as in circa 1700) that everyone could use freely, it would > > really > > help to jumpstart the economc relocalization component of sustainable > > living. So, the market project would a way to somehow go on the > > offensive in > > this area I'm not clear on who own the space between the buildings > > in the > > commons. > > > > Also, some people were talking about deliveries between four and > > siz am > > which leads me to the question, who are the expected customers of the > > market. Big city wholsale markets so start really early in the morning > > because, grocers, restaurants, caterers and so pick up food to > > resell. If were > > starting the market you described today, I would keep it open half > > a day > > during afternoon/early evening. Right now, I don't think there > > would be > > enough of a flow of customers during the whole day to justify a farmer > > spending all of the precious day light hours there. The afternoon > > hours give > > people time to work, pick and load, are are more convenient for > > customers > > since they can go after work. > > > > Just some ideas which I hope will be constructive in your project. > > > > Lyn > > > > > > On 15 Oct 2008 at 10:16, Jan Quarles wrote: > > > >> Since two crises are converging right now (economic and > >> environmental), why > >> not advocate for both the short-term solution (sales of fresh > >> produce and > >> other locally produced goods from farmers' trucks at a downtown > >> parking > >> garage on certain days/evenings), as well as the longer-term plan of > >> permanent stalls on The Commons? That way, we'd get one solution > >> going while > >> we develop the next one. > >> > >> BTW: I'm having a "back to the future" with Tom's suggestion about > >> using a > >> parking garage for a market. In the 80s when we first arrived here, > >> I > >> remember buying produce and Angelheart linen dresses from the backs > >> of > >> trucks parked downtown in a big lot. (Was it near the current Post > >> Office, > >> where that big parking garage is now?) Those were the humble roots > >> of > >> today's Ithaca Farmers Market, and Angelheart Designs! > >> > >> Jan Quarles > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Jon Bosak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Sustainable Tompkins County listserv" > >> <[email protected]> > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 9:48 AM > >> Subject: Re: [SustainableTompkins] Farmers markets & the Commons > >> > >> > >>> [George Frantz:] > >>> > >>> | The Lancaster Central Market building covers an area about the > >>> | size of the Tompkins County Library, and Reading Terminal > >> Market > >>> | is about twice that size (albeit underneath a convention > >> center.) > >>> | Both are enclosed buildings that operate year [round]. > >>> > >>> That's what I think we should be building -- an enclosed, > >>> year-round facility that would replace most of what currently > >>> occupies the center of the Commons. In other words, a real > >>> traditional central market. A wholesale replacement of the > >>> current layout is already under discussion by the City, so this > >>> isn't as radical as it sounds; the question is whether it would > >>> work logistically. > >>> > >>> | Whereas Wegmans can rely on tractor trailers to deliver large > >>> | quantities of goods, a central market needs to accommodate > >> many, > >>> | many small delivery vehicles to supply the individual vendors > >> that > >>> | would be housed there. Although they would likely be arriving > >>> | before 6:00 AM, introducing large numbers of such vehicles to > >>> | downtown Ithaca could be problematic. > >>> > >>> I doubt that the number of vehicles needed for deliveries would > >> be > >>> greater than (or even close to) the number that already come > >> into > >>> Ithaca at rush hour as people arrive for work. If most of the > >>> delivery vehicles arrived from 4 to 6 a.m. and left before 7, I > >>> don't think there would be a problem. We could designate all > >> the > >>> parking spaces on the streets immediately adjacent to the > >> Commons > >>> as loading zones during those hours to make sure deliveries got > >> in > >>> and out quickly and that all the spaces were available for that > >>> purpose. > >>> > >>> | The other issue is the customer traffic that would be > >> generated. > >>> | At any given time on any Saturday at the Farmers' Market there > >> are > >>> | as many as 300-350 cars parked in the parking lot and along > >> the > >>> | various streets as far back toward Route 13 as Carpenter > >>> | Drive. (versus 25-30 parked bikes) A successful central market > >>> | would generate that amount of parking demand or more in terms > >> of > >>> | parking demand, in a downtown area that is already near or > >> over > >>> | capacity with regard to parking. > >>> > >>> As Tom Shelley and Andy Goodell have observed, downtown parking > >>> structures are currently underutilized. A central market might > >>> actually justify the investment the City made in them. > >>> > >>> But really I think this misses the point. For people who want > >> to > >>> drive in once a week for a farmers' market, we've already got > >> one > >>> of those. The primary purpose of a central market would be to > >>> serve the daily needs of people who actually live in the city > >> and > >>> could get there on foot, by bicycle, or by bus. Among other > >>> advantages, a central market would finally fill the vacuum left > >> by > >>> the exit of grocery stores from downtown. > >>> > >>> | Because Lancaster is a compactly built, colonial era city, it > >> has > >>> | a population density of about 2.5 times that of Ithaca (the > >> city). > >>> | That puts some 20,000-25,000 residents within a ten minute walk > >> of > >>> | Central Market and as a result it generates little in the way > >> of > >>> | automobile traffic. On the other hand in Ithaca there is only > >> in > >>> | the range of 5,000-7,000 residents within a ten minute walk of > >>> | downtown and a potential market. (Yes, density, density, > >>> | density...) > >>> > >>> The market will have to be scaled to the surrounding population, > >>> but I don't think that its customer base will be limited to > >> people > >>> within a 10 minute walk. Bus service within the city is quite > >>> good, and for much of the year, bicycles are a practical option. > >>> The use of transportation modes other than the car is determined > >>> largely by the options available; by creating a workable > >> shopping > >>> center downtown, we would be expanding those options > >>> significantly. I think Tom Shelley has this right: > >>> > >>> The downtown location would encourage walking and biking over > >>> driving for many. It certainly would for me. And I think > >> this > >>> location would still draw traffic to the Commons which would > >> be > >>> one of the economic advantages of a downtown Farmers' > >>> Market. > >>> > >>> Another factor that needs to be taken into account here is the > >>> strong likelihood that private automobile traffic will decrease > >> as > >>> it becomes more expensive and people have less disposable > >> income. > >>> The central market concept arose from the need to have > >>> distribution close to population centers, and it fits this > >> future > >>> perfectly. > >>> > >>> | My sense is that a location close to Route 13 on the > >> Northside, > >>> | West End or Southwest areas would work better than a downtown > >>> | location. > >>> > >>> I don't see this as a meaningful improvement over what we've > >>> already got. > >>> > >>> | Finally, it should indeed be a publcily owned market. Parking > >>> | garages after all can be publicly owned and subsidized, so why > >> not > >>> | a central market? > >>> > >>> I completely agree. The City should build it and rent out the > >>> space. Again, I would remind everyone that the City is > >> *already* > >>> facing an expensive building project as it puts the Commons back > >>> together after doing required work on water and sewer mains. It > >>> would be to the economic advantage of the City to make what it > >>> builds a revenue center rather than a cost center. > >>> > >>> | This doesn't mean that an outdoor farmer's market should not > >> be > >>> | pursued for the Commons, but I personally hesitate at the > >> thought > >>> | of a permanent structure with 100+ vendors open 3 or more days > >> per > >>> | week in the downtown area. > >>> > >>> Make that a permanent structure with 100+ vendors open *all* > >> week > >>> and you've got something I wouldn't hesitate over for a second. > >>> But possibly that's because I've already seen such a thing > >> working > >>> in places that have far fewer resources than we do. > >>> > >>> Jon > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County > >> area, > >>> please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/ > >>> > >>> RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for: > >>> [email protected] > >>> http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins > >>> free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> No virus found in this incoming message. > >>> Checked by AVG. > >>> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1726 - Release Date: > >> 10/15/2008 > >>> 7:29 AM > >>> > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County > >> area, please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/ > >> > >> RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for: > >> [email protected] > >> http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins > >> free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County > > area, please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/ > > > > RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for: > > [email protected] > > http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins > > free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org > >Marlo Capoccia >Garden Gate >www.gardengatedelivery.com >607 342 6228 > > > >_______________________________________________ >For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County area, >please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/ > >RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for: >[email protected] >http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins >free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org _______________________________________________ For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County area, please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/ RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for: [email protected] http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org
