Replying to my own note of Saturday, I wanted to report on some other things I found out.
Conclusion it looks like my grumpy concern here was probably too grumpy the legal folks I talked with (mostly copyright attorneys rather than treaty or trademark specialists) generally think that flag reproduction is pretty unregulated, so there seems to be little likelihood of trouble. You can follow the discussion at http://roster.wcl.american.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind1110b <http://roster.wcl.american.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind1110b&L=pijip-copyright &T=0&F=&S=&P=75> &L=pijip-copyright&T=0&F=&S=&P=75 if like me, youre intrigues by such things. But here is my most recent post that seems to summarize what I now know: ----------------------------------- Adding to the original intent of the question, I did find this http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.pdf <https://rockmail.sru.edu/owa/redir.aspx?C=6c065d4bd34847df98fdf3e5c5e8f8d1&; URL=http%3a%2f%2fwww.senate.gov%2freference%2fresources%2fpdf%2fRL30243.pdf> and this http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/more/10834.htm <https://rockmail.sru.edu/owa/redir.aspx?C=6c065d4bd34847df98fdf3e5c5e8f8d1&; URL=http%3a%2f%2fwww.ushistory.org%2fbetsy%2fmore%2f10834.htm> The first is a Senate report on Law relating to display. The second is Executive Order No. 10834 that sets the dimensions of the flag (e.g. each stripe is 1/13th the height of the flag, to four decimals of accuracy; the aspect ratio should be 1.9 to 1 (W to L) ). I don't see definitions of red, white or blue, so presumably "#ff0000" and "#fe0101" that are both perceived as red would be within the spirit of the law. The nature of the stitching that joins the stripes does not seem to be specified, meaning that rounding error in conventional on-screen displays by vector-based definitions should not present a problem if certain background colors become visible at high levels of zoom. Nowhere in the executive order does it seem to specify that the stars should be five-pointed, nor that they are required to have radial symmetry. It was this sort of thing that I was originally asking about. While the Senate report says that "Cases which have construed the former 36 U.S.C. § 17521 have concluded that the Flag Code does not proscribe conduct, but is merely declaratory and advisory" , it also says "The 'Code' also grants to the President the authority to modify the rules governing the flag." This is in the US, in which freedom of expression is to large extent celebrated. I could imagine other nations, with less reputation for artistic tolerance, or in which the authority to modify the rules might rest in an executive having fewer checks and balances, that an artist's depiction of Angkor Wat, for example, might lead to disfavor. I was rather assuming that flags might be to nations as trademarks would be to companies, and I would certainly not presume to sketch my own hand crafted impressions of the trademarks of each of the Fortune 500 companies. There is also this site: http://www.vexilla-mundi.com/ <https://rockmail.sru.edu/owa/redir.aspx?C=6c065d4bd34847df98fdf3e5c5e8f8d1&; URL=http%3a%2f%2fwww.vexilla-mundi.com%2f> that seems to be a vexillologist's collection of specifications regarding colors. As Rob Raeside, Director of the Flags of the World project writes, it "is the best compilation of colours on national flags, although it doesn't distinguish between those that are set by decree and for those not defined, the generally accepted manufacturers' colours." But I am somewhat encouraged by Wallace McLean's statement that "I've come across a number of national copyright laws which specifically exempt flags (national of the country, national of all countries, or sub-national) from copyright restrictions." And by Sagedave's "Certainly anyone is entitled to show or even manipulate or alter an image of a national flag as long as one is not using the image for nefarious purposes such as implying government sponsorship of something." He continued off-list that "there are some things not worth agonizing over. If there is any such treaty, it is universally ignored. All national flags are very widely reproduced, skillfully and not skillfully, with true color and poor color, for every sort of purpose." It sounds as though my caution here is unneeded. Good! I'll share this note with the tech folks interested in this particular project. -- Cambodia really wasn't happy with the Unicode character set that was initially penned for that language, and that was a part of what provoked my caution. I wanted to be sure to tie up loose ends, though, for the handful of folks who might have been interested. Thanks to those who responded! cheers David note Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2011 9:43 PM I too like the idea. Two relatively grumpy sounding (but ultimately rather interesting cautions): (I may cross-post this to PIJIP copyright for those interested in the legal nuances) 1. IP laws concerning flags. The last I looked into it, it was a bit of a morass. I confess I didn't look very deeply but I did look into flag-law in the US and the UK a bit. It was not encouraging, from a sort of corporate perspective. National treatments differ. In the US, even though the federal government is prohibited from owning copyrights, the regulation of the appearance of the US flag is (or at least it was when I looked) under the exclusive authority of the President (whose perspectives on "flag propriety" may change from administration to administration) . It seems like something similar existed for the UK but with the crown owning those rights of regulation. I don't know what the UN has to say about it, but the scary scenario for me, as I was looking into it, was suppose someone using what was demonstrably one of my flags upsets the government of the sovereign nation of Pastu-Ta-Lali and then. before the Hague, I am held liable for the property damage caused by the bearers of said flag in the small revolt sponsored by unknown interests? Consider the complexity that the Unicode folks ran into in trying to come up with a proper treatment of Cambodian script. It was complicated, and the story is fascinating if I could ever track down the person I heard talk about it. That was one concern. The other is the definition of colors in countries that might not recognize Pantone nor sRGB, nor "registration black" Not so much as a "copy" right but more of a "derivation" right akin to both trademark and copyright law. In the US it is neither trademark nor copyright but "flag law". Good luck finding an attorney well versed in that boutique specialty. 2. Most national flags are pretty darned rectilinear, but not all. If one starts drawing the US flag in Inkscape, instead of something remarkably inspired and concise like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg (whoever did it did it the geometry with inspiration!) we might end up with 250K of polygons for the stripes that don't quite align at high resolutions. One would also want to pay attention to the national laws that stipulate the actual geometry (as well as the colors) and to make sure that the semantics and history are properly respected through <title> and <desc> tags. (I've seen some pretty crappy versions of the Mexican flag, for example) It's a wonderful project, and if one were to work within the umbrella provided by Wikipedia's longstanding distribution of flag-pictures, you'd probably be okay. The first time I saw a collection of national flags in thumbnail gif format was about 25 years ago. I winced. At first I was happy since it was so "international" but then I saw how bad some of the colors looked so terribly bad. The versions on the web seem to have improved since then, but nations do have their laws and their nationalism to contend with. Get some UN funding (a grant would be nice) and let's go do it up right! Am I being too cautious? Probably, Cheers David [ http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/text/StwelveX3.svg ] From: [email protected] <mailto:svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:[email protected] <mailto:svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Cameron Laird Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2011 5:23 PM To: [email protected] <mailto:svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [svg-developers] national flags for use in db? perhaps ip-to-country.csv On Sat, Oct 08, 2011 at 09:37:38PM +0100, Jonathan Chetwynd wrote: . . . > has anyone already created, or is anyone interested to help create a > tight** svgz file of national flags searchable by id of country > eg with ip-to-country.csv . . . I like the idea. Phaseit might be able to assign an Inkscape adept to such a project over the next month or so. 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