Proof? That remains to be seen as I have said. Also, I followed the email thread very closely. What I am saying is that I am not surprised that Brent supports this ultimate proposal not that this is what Brent supported originally.
Brandon Sent from my iPad > On Jun 9, 2016, at 12:35 PM, L. Mihalkovic <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > >> On Jun 9, 2016, at 6:16 PM, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jun 9, 2016, at 11:55 AM, Brent Royal-Gordon <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>>> I believe large syntax changes should have more discussion from more >>>> developers and not a very small subset of them. The review announcement >>>> needs to be broader: the swift blog needs to announce it so more people >>>> know. >>> >>> No. >> >> Grrrr >> >>> >>> Firstly, for those who cannot follow the list—and I can't say I blame >>> them—the -announce list already allows them to ignore everything except the >>> beginnings of reviews. Anyone who wants to (and who speaks English) can be >>> notified of any significant proposed change to the language and can submit >>> their comments for the core team's consideration. That is enough. >> >> I think your perspective is flawed here. You are precisely one of the "top >> developers" I have been referring to. Am I surprised this is your opinion? >> Not one bit. > > But if you followed the email trail you must have noticed that the final > choice was not what brent supported. I would even say that it was not any of > the solutions anyone proposed.. Proof that the process worked, the team made > a change nobody anticipated, yet many people can (partially) identify with. > >> >> Mailing lists are a rather old thing...and I think many will find them >> daunting or maybe somewhat annoying with all of the announcements. How many >> people are subscribed to announce? It does not seem like many because >> well...we don't always get a lot of feedback. We get feedback from the same >> people over and over. How is this enough? How is this enough variety? >> >> Just because "announce" is more palatable does not mean that it is being >> used in the way you are describing. >> >> Maybe there is another problem then: people afraid to share their opinions >> publicly. I wonder why this would be. >> >>> The purpose of reviews is not to cast ballots for or against a feature. It >>> is to submit arguments, for and against, for the core team to consider as >>> they decide whether and how to address the problem the proposal's >>> "Motivation" section describes. For that purpose, there is no need to >>> collect hundreds or thousands of reviews, and if we did, the review manager >>> would be swamped anyway. It is enough to get a reasonable variety of eyes, >>> from a reasonable variety of perspectives, on the problem. >> >> Why do people keep saying I am asking for: "hundreds or thousands" of >> reviews? I am just asking for something like 20 - 25 unique people's >> feedback. We are not getting that. We get the same people over and >> over...which makes the feedback seem screwed to this small group's >> philosophies. >> >> Getting feedback from the same ~10 people is not a "reasonable variety of >> eyes" in my opinion. That is a very small sample. And that sample is usually >> those who are very technically skilled...who I would say do not always >> design the best interfaces. >> >>> I think that has happened here. We have not heard from every perspective, >>> but we have heard from enough of them that adding more will not help all >>> that much. Feedback always has diminishing returns: going from one person >>> to two is far more valuable than going from fifty-one to fifty-two. >> >> I think you will be very surprised come WWDC when people learn of this >> change. >> >> How is there value when the same people keep justifying changes for the sake >> of consistency? Is this in the user's best interest? Or is this in the swift >> engineer's best interest? >> >> This is precisely why I think more feedback is important. We need more than >> just the same people propping up proposals that gives an illusion that it is >> representative of everyone using swift. >> >> The bar should be high for changing syntax, so I don't buy the argument that >> 25 people sharing their feedback is somehow less valuable than 10 people >> sharing. >> >>> And in particular, I *don't* think the beginner perspective is an >>> especially worrisome one for this particular proposal. >> >> I don't think this was though through thoroughly enough. It just happened >> too fast >> >>> Though some of the syntaxes we considered might have been confusing for >>> beginners (*cough*semicolon*cough*), the one the core team settled in is >>> actually one of the simplest, and certainly much simpler than the status >>> quo. If anything, the people most disadvantaged by this solution are the >>> power users who are used to the "multiple if-let" shorthand and will now >>> have to add extra keywords to their code. >> >> Maybe you are right. Maybe I am vastly wrong. But I guess this will be >> clearer come WWDC. >> >> And I already know how the people complaining about this change will be >> silenced: it was done for the consistency of the language and the grammar. >> >> How can us simpletons argue against that? >> >> Also, I want to make clear that my concern is not just for this review but >> for future reviews also. How different could the language look with more >> varied feedback? >> >> Again, I hope I am wrong =/ >> Brandon >> >> >>> -- >>> Brent Royal-Gordon >>> Architechies >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> swift-evolution mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
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