On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 9:18 PM, Xiaodi Wu <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 7:29 PM, Taylor Swift <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 7:54 PM, Xiaodi Wu <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 6:29 PM, Taylor Swift <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> See, my problem with statements like this one, is that the answer >>>> “should be supported as a third-party library” can also be interpreted as >>>> “not my problem, go figure it out yourselves”. The idea that central entity >>>> can only pay attention to what they want to, and the Community™ will >>>> magically take care of the rest is one of the most pervasive, and untrue, >>>> myths about open source. What’s worse, is that Swift has the benefit of >>>> hindsight, in the form of many, many examples of languages that came before >>>> and fell victim to this fallacy, and now have 15 competing “private” >>>> classes for basic mathematical objects like *vectors*. >>>> >>>> I agree that a core math library, for example, *could* in theory be >>>> supported as a third-party library. >>>> >>> >>> The core team has said that they're open to a core math library being >>> part of the Swift open source project; they just outlined that the >>> _process_ for doing so is best initiated with a third-party library as a >>> starting point. >>> >>> >>>> But this will never happen on its own, for reasons that I will >>>> reiterate here: >>>> >>>> - no one influential enough has bothered to jump start any such project >>>> >>> >>> Karoly Lorentey has a wonderful, and quite mature, BigInt project: < >>> https://github.com/lorentey/BigInt>. Also, as I mentioned, I just >>> started a project for protocol-based additions to Swift's basic numeric >>> types. These are just two examples. >>> >>> >>>> - there are no avenues to encourage members of the community to come >>>> together and organize a project (look how this thread got derailed!) >>>> >>> >>> You're welcome to join me in my endeavor to create a math library. I'd >>> bet Karoly feels the same way about his project. >>> >> >> You don’t know how happy reading that sentence just made me, i’d assumed >> no one was willing to team up to build such a thing. In which case, it’s a >> good idea to start an incubator organization on Github. I think David >> Turnbull tried doing that 2 years ago, I’ll reach out to him if he wants to >> be a part of something like this. >> >> We should also maintain an index of promising pure swift libraries so >> they are discoverable (like docs.rs does for Rust). >> > > I believe there has been mention on this list that the core team would > like to revisit this idea at some point. > > >> >>> >>>> - there is no “soft” infrastructure in place to support such >>>> collaboration (look at the fuss over discourse and mailing list spam!) >>>> >>> >>> The GitHub environment has excellent tools to support such >>> collaboration, IMO. For example: >>> >>> Based on my experience implementing a library, I wrote a Gist to outline >>> some lessons learned and suggestions for improvement. Not only did the >>> document find an audience, these suggestions were in turn used to inform >>> core team-driven revisions to the integer protocols. As a result of these >>> revisions, it became possible to implement some initializers that could be >>> useful for people writing generic numeric algorithms. Recently, I submitted >>> a PR to the Swift project on GitHub to implement these initializers. Now, >>> everyone will be able to use them. Collaboration, positive feedback loop, >>> win-win for all involved. >>> >>> Likewise, Karoly used his experience updating BigInt for Swift 4 to >>> inform certain improvements to the integer protocols. He implemented these >>> improvements in a series of PRs. Now, as a result of these developments, >>> Karoly's library will be better designed *and* everyone else will benefit >>> from a better implementation of the integer protocols. Again, >>> collaboration, positive feedback loop, win-win for all involved. >>> >> >> Great!! can you link me to the gist? >> > > https://gist.github.com/xwu/d68baefaae9e9291d2e65bd12ad51be2 > > >>> - there are no positive feedback loops whereby a promising project can >>>> gain market share and mature >>>> - because there is no organization backing these projects, potential >>>> users are reluctant to depend on these libraries, since they will logically >>>> bet that the library is more likely to fall out of maintenance than reach >>>> maturity. >>>> >>> >>> Addressing this point is clearly impossible. When Apple wishes to commit >>> its own resources to the maintenance of a Swift math library, >>> swift-corelibs-math will appear on GitHub. Suggestions such as opening an >>> empty repo and letting people contribute to it would either give the >>> illusion of organizational backing that doesn't exist or would in fact >>> commit Apple to support a repo that it doesn't wish to support. I fail to >>> see why the former is good for anybody; in fact, it's strictly inferior to >>> the same repo honestly representing itself as a third-party effort. And >>> asking for the latter is essentially asking Apple to create a Swift math >>> library--which, again, is not in the cards. >>> >> >> My point wasn’t really to exhort Apple to create a Swift math library, >> just that people are more willing to depend on a library if the library’s >> bus factor is greater than 1. A lot of great Swift packages in one one guy >> or girl’s github repository who later disappeared. Turnbull’s SGLOpenGL >> library is a good example of this; his library no longer compiles which >> motivated me to write swift-opengl >> <https://github.com/kelvin13/swift-opengl>. Then again, I’m sure people >> feel the same way about depending on swift-opengl today as I felt about >> depending on SGLOpenGL. >> >> There just has so be some semblance of organization. That organization >> doesn’t have to come from Apple or the swift core team. A community >> initiative with sufficient momentum would be just as good. (The problem of >> course is that it is rare for a community initiative to arise.) >> > > Well, hang on now. There are plenty of products put out by even major > organizations that are unceremoniously and abruptly cut. There are plenty > of projects worked on by one or a few major people that are long-lived. > Projects that have longevity have some sort of financially sensible model > for their continued existence. Three, thirty, or even 300 unpaid people > working on an open-source project won't make it much more reliable (in the > eyes of others) than one unpaid person, and again I disagree that the > veneer of an organization is superior to presenting the status of the > project honestly. (Example--what is commonly thought to be a bigger threat > to Firefox's continued health: the possibility that there will be a > shortfall in unpaid contributors, or the possibility that there will be a > shortfall in funding?) > > Rounding up all the goodwill on this list will not do you any good if your > goal is to convince users that a certain project will be maintained into > the future--because it won't rustle up a single dime. Whether or not you > explicitly equate these in your mind, "backing" == money, and if you want > this point addressed, you're claiming that someone somewhere should be > spending money on a Swift math library. I'm personally committed to making > sure that my code will work for the foreseeable future, but I fully accept > that there's simply no way for me to convince a sufficient number of people > of this fact without a credible showing of funding. In that sense, a > community initiative with "momentum" is decidedly not going to be a > just-as-good alternative to a core library. > > Well that there is a rather defeatist attitude. If you are correct that Apple-funded development is the only way to get core libraries built (and maintained), and Apple has expressed they have no intention of doing so, then we are all pretty much f****d.
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