Which isn’t a problem right now, AFAICT. Apps compiled under older SDKs 
continue to work fine (sometimes better than when compiled under the new SDK, 
as the older one avoids new bugs). My question is about how that compatibility 
is accomplished today and how and why the Obj-C and Swift cases are apparently 
different here. 


> On Jan 6, 2018, at 6:12 PM, Javier Soto <javier....@gmail.com> wrote:
> What doesn't happen today? The issue is not when they ship a new SDK: When 
> rebuilding your app against it, you'll get a warning for a missing case. The 
> problem is when running the app against a newer iOS version with a newer 
> version of the SDK where the enum has a new case.
>> On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 3:10 PM Jon Shier <j...@jonshier.com> wrote:
>> Except it clearly doesn’t happen today when Apple ships new SDKs. Obviously 
>> there’s an alternate mechanism used in that case. I’m just curious what it 
>> is and why Swift so desperately needs an alternative.  
>> Jon
>>> On Jan 6, 2018, at 5:49 PM, Javier Soto <javier....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> This is very much an issue in Obj-C today. If you have an NS_ENUM defined 
>>> with cases A, B, and C, this switch is correct:
>>> int foo;
>>> swith (e) { 
>>> case A: foo = 0; break;
>>> case B: foo = 1; break;
>>> case C: foo = 2; break;
>>> }
>>> (Note the lack of a default case)
>>> If that enum is defined in a framework and it changes after the app is 
>>> compiled (like it's the case with Apple frameworks), then that code 
>>> produces no warning, yet the foo variable will have a garbage value 
>>> (undefined behavior, but as far as the compiler can tell at compile time 
>>> your code is fine)
>>> Adding a default clause to that switch has the downside of not getting 
>>> warnings for new added cases, like has been discussed before, which is very 
>>> useful.
>>>> On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 7:11 PM Jon Shier via swift-evolution 
>>>> <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>>>> At this point I think it might be useful to outline how binary 
>>>> compatibility works for Objective-C on Apple platforms right now. As an 
>>>> app developer I’m not intimately familiar with what happens when you run 
>>>> an app compiled with the iOS 10 SDK on iOS 11. Are there just runtime 
>>>> checks to call old code paths or something else? The more this thread goes 
>>>> on the more confused I get about why Swift would have this issue while it 
>>>> doesn’t appear to be one for Obj-C. If an enum adds a case now, I don’t 
>>>> have to care until I recompile using the new SDK. Is the intention for 
>>>> Swift to be different in this regard?
>>>> Jon Shier
>>>>> On Jan 5, 2018, at 6:41 PM, Jordan Rose via swift-evolution 
>>>>> <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>>>>>> On Jan 3, 2018, at 00:54, Jason Merchant via swift-evolution 
>>>>>> <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>>>>>> Is it hard to imagine that most everyone can get what they want and keep 
>>>>>> the syntax clean and streamlined at the same time? Without any "@" signs 
>>>>>> or other compiler hints?
>>>>> For what it's worth, the original version of the proposal started with a 
>>>>> modifier (a context-sensitive keyword, like 'final'), but the core team 
>>>>> felt that there were a lot of modifiers in the language already, and this 
>>>>> didn't meet the bar.
>>>>>>> "Rather, we are how to enable the vendor of a nonexhaustive enum to add 
>>>>>>> new cases without breaking binaries compiled against previous versions"
>>>>>> When an enum changes, and the change causes the code to break, the user 
>>>>>> can be presented with migration options from an automated IDE tool. In 
>>>>>> what specific way does this not solve the issue about having to upgrade 
>>>>>> your code when using someone else's code library? This very notion 
>>>>>> implies your disgruntled about doing work when things are upgraded, is 
>>>>>> that really what this fuss is all about?
>>>>>> A well written language interpreter and auto-tooling IDE would not need 
>>>>>> hints embedded in the code syntax itself. Migration hints from version 
>>>>>> to version should not be a part of either the past or future version of 
>>>>>> the code library.
>>>>> Thanks for bringing this up! Unfortunately, it falls down in practice, 
>>>>> because if there's a new enum case, it's unclear what you want to do with 
>>>>> it. If you're handling errors, it's not obvious that the way you've 
>>>>> handled any of the other errors is appropriate. In the (admittedly 
>>>>> controversial) SKPaymentTransactionState case, none of the existing code 
>>>>> would be appropriate to handle the newly-introduced "deferred" case, and 
>>>>> nor could StoreKit provide "template" code that would be appropriate to 
>>>>> the client app.
>>>>> In any case, though, the key point on this particular quoted sentence is 
>>>>> "without breaking binaries". Any such change must be valid without 
>>>>> recompilation, and indeed without any intervention from the developer or 
>>>>> an IDE, because that's what happens when the user updates their OS.
>>>>> Jordan
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>> I don't expect the community to agree on language grammar, but the 
>>>>>> common sense here on how to achieve the intended goals seems to be out 
>>>>>> of wack.
>>>>>> If someone can present a clear logical statement as to how an automated 
>>>>>> migration tool behind the scenes in the IDE to handle all your 
>>>>>> versioning worries, does not make this whole discussion about adding 
>>>>>> more convoluted syntax additions irrelevant, I'd love to hear it.
>>>>>> ___________________
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> Jason
>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 12:36 PM, Xiaodi Wu <xiaodi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 12:11 PM, Jason Merchant via swift-evolution 
>>>>>>>> <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I think this whole thing has been unnecessarily convoluted. As a 
>>>>>>>> result, the majority of the replies are rabbit holes.
>>>>>>>> In my opinion, the true root of the concept in question is as follows:
>>>>>>>> A list of something is desired:
>>>>>>>> 1 - Pancake
>>>>>>>> 2 - Waffle
>>>>>>>> 3 - Juice
>>>>>>>> Developer wishes to be able to:
>>>>>>>> A) Add new things to the list of choices in the future as they come up 
>>>>>>>> with new ideas
>>>>>>>> B) Sometimes select one of the choices to be chosen as the normal 
>>>>>>>> choice if no choice is made by the user
>>>>>>>> A and B are separate desires. In some circumstances a developer may 
>>>>>>>> want to add a new choice and make it the normal choice when there was 
>>>>>>>> no normal choice was clarified before.
>>>>>>> I don't think this is an accurate summary of the problem being tackled 
>>>>>>> here. Rather, we are how to enable the vendor of a nonexhaustive enum 
>>>>>>> to add new cases without breaking binaries compiled against previous 
>>>>>>> versions. There is little here to do with what a "default" should be. 
>>>>>>> Indeed, it is an explicit design decision of Swift not to support types 
>>>>>>> having an implicit default value.
>>>>>>>> ____________________
>>>>>>>> Part 2:
>>>>>>>> After this simple desire is clear, there should be two discussions:
>>>>>>>> A) In a text only coding language, what would we like the syntax to 
>>>>>>>> look like? (Without regard to past-bias. What should it really be, 
>>>>>>>> forget what mistaken design choices were made in Swift in the past)
>>>>>>>> B) How do we approach making this happen behind the scenes?
>>>>>>>> Bonus: Given that some of us have changed our approach to programming 
>>>>>>>> significantly beyond text based coding, and into more dynamic mediums 
>>>>>>>> of programming in other niches, and even here and there in Xcode - I 
>>>>>>>> would recommend considering how the IDE would show a modern version of 
>>>>>>>> this concept. I feel too often that Swift design syntax has a lack of 
>>>>>>>> awareness between the distinctions of what the IDE should do, as 
>>>>>>>> opposed to what the syntax of the language should be, and what should 
>>>>>>>> be handled behind the scenes by automated tooling.
>>>>>>>> _____________________
>>>>>>>> My opinion, in answering the above questions is in preference to a 
>>>>>>>> simple easy to read and write syntax, something like the following:
>>>>>>>> choices Breakfast {
>>>>>>>>     Pancake, Waffle, Juice
>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>> If a "default" choice is desired, it is obvious to me that I would 
>>>>>>>> select the choice from the IDE, and it would be visually indicated 
>>>>>>>> that it was the default.
>>>>>>>> When changes occur, whether new choices are added, old ones are 
>>>>>>>> removed or changed, or a default is added, changed, or removed - a 
>>>>>>>> behind the scenes automated tool analyzes the changes and presents 
>>>>>>>> migration options through the IDE.
>>>>>>>> _____________________
>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>> Jason
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> -- 
>>> Javier Soto
> -- 
> Javier Soto
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