Hi DM,
Please clarify in more detail what was actually changed in SWORD SVN.
Did you also patch mkfastmod such that this now also has a -N option in its
command line syntax?
Or is it just somewhere in the SWORD API that mkfastmod makes a call to?
cf. Many front-ends can create a Lucene search index from within the app, so
the internal command would be hidden from the user.
If we provide better support for modules with Normalization=Custom, then
front-ends may need to be enhanced to offer such an option when the index is
generated.
For such front-ends, if the proposed key exists in the module conf file, this
option could be chosen automatically, thus not requiring user knowledge or
intervention.
Is my case now beginning to make more sense?
Best regards,
David
Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Module .conf files, Unicode Normalization
> Local Time: 7 January 2018 1:52 PM
> UTC Time: 7 January 2018 13:52
> From: dfh...@protonmail.com
> To: sword-devel mailing list <sword-devel@crosswire.org>
>
> In other words, it tells the library something significant about the module
> that the engine needs to know about in order to perform a certain function
> correctly.
>
> Aside: I didn't mean to take this offline. I simply forgot to edit the
> addresses.
>
> David
>
> Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
>
> On Sun, Jan 7, 2018 at 13:46, DM Smith <dmsm...@crosswire.org> wrote:
>
>> Library uses it to convert bytes to string.
>>
>> — DM Smith
>> From my phone. Brief. Weird autocorrections.
>>
>> On Jan 7, 2018, at 8:44 AM, David Haslam <dfh...@protonmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Then answer this question, please.
>>>
>>> What value has the Encoding key ?
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>> Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jan 7, 2018 at 12:52, DM Smith <dmsm...@crosswire.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> SWORD too.
>>>>
>>>> I don’t yet see a value in the suggested conf entry.
>>>>
>>>> — DM Smith
>>>> From my phone. Brief. Weird autocorrections.
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 7, 2018, at 4:03 AM, David Haslam <dfh...@protonmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You mean in the JSword API ?
>>>>>
>>>>> If so, that a start. Thanks, DM. :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Does that mean you now support the proposed new config key being accepted
>>>>> and documented?
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 23:43, DM Smith <dmsm...@crosswire.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I added -N. To make search work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> — DM Smith
>>>>>> From my phone. Brief. Weird autocorrections.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jan 6, 2018, at 4:41 PM, David Haslam <dfh...@protonmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks DM.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting observations.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It prompts the question whether either engine includes the capability
>>>>>>> to normalize the search index (assuming that it does normalize the
>>>>>>> search key).
>>>>>>> And that it does this by default ????
>>>>>>> Or does indexing assume that all modules were made without using the -N
>>>>>>> option and are therefore already in NFC.
>>>>>>> Yet it also remains the case that some front-ends also provide for
>>>>>>> non-indexed search options.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Moreover, it raise questions as to how the front-end actually displays
>>>>>>> the set of search results when all or part of the underlying module is
>>>>>>> not NFC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It must be the case that the developers of osis2mod had a valid reason
>>>>>>> to provide the -N option.
>>>>>>> Are those involved back then still with CrossWire?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 21:20, DM Smith <dmsm...@crosswire.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The purpose of normalization was for the sake of search. Only when the
>>>>>>>> search index and the search request are normalized to the same form
>>>>>>>> can a result be found.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It doesn’t matter if the normalized form is not readable. If SWORD (or
>>>>>>>> JSword) normalizes both the same, then it doesn’t matter what Unicode
>>>>>>>> Normalization or lack of it is used for displaying the text.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Assuming that SWORD (or JSword) handles search properly, the only
>>>>>>>> advantage of canonical over decomposed in the module itself is space.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In Him,
>>>>>>>> DM
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jan 6, 2018, at 2:26 PM, David Haslam <dfh...@protonmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Good question, Tom.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Assuming that the Latin script part of the source text actually
>>>>>>>>> required normalization to NFC,
>>>>>>>>> and that at least some of the Biblical Hebrew should not be converted
>>>>>>>>> to NFC,
>>>>>>>>> you'd build the module using the -N switch of osis2mod, after first
>>>>>>>>> applying a script
>>>>>>>>> to the source text to ensure that both the requirements were
>>>>>>>>> implemented.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It would be a very simple task for a bespoke TextPipe filter with a
>>>>>>>>> restrict filter
>>>>>>>>> designed to limit the Convert to NFC subfilter to the text that was
>>>>>>>>> not Hebrew.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ignoring alphabetical presentation forms, all the Hebrew characters
>>>>>>>>> are in one Unicode block.
>>>>>>>>> A PCRE to exclude the Hebrew would be very simple.
>>>>>>>>> I could almost do it in my sleep after 17 years using TextPipe.
>>>>>>>>> No doubt other programmers could do likewise with Perl or Python, etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 19:14, Tom Sullivan <i...@beforgiven.info>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Y'all: For text, such as in a commentary, which includes both Hebrew
>>>>>>>>>> and English (or another modern Latin script using language), what do
>>>>>>>>>> you put for the normalization? Tom Tom Sullivan
>>>>>>>>>> info@BeForgiven.INFOFAX: 815-301-2835 --------------------- Great
>>>>>>>>>> News! God created you, owns you and gave you commands to obey. You
>>>>>>>>>> have disobeyed God - as your conscience very well attests to you.
>>>>>>>>>> God's holiness and justice compel Him to punish you in Hell. Jesus
>>>>>>>>>> Christ became Man, was crucified, buried and rose from the dead as a
>>>>>>>>>> substitute for all who trust in Him, redeeming them from Hell. If
>>>>>>>>>> you repent (turn from your sin) and believe (trust) in Jesus Christ,
>>>>>>>>>> you will go to Heaven. Otherwise you will go to Hell. Warning! Good
>>>>>>>>>> works are a result, not cause, of saving trust. More info is at
>>>>>>>>>> www.esig.beforgiven.infoDo you believe this? Copy this signature
>>>>>>>>>> into your email program and use the Internet to spread the Great
>>>>>>>>>> News every time you email. On 01/06/2018 12:32 PM, David Haslam
>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > Hi Greg, > > One area where it might turn out to be useful
>>>>>>>>>> is for the search features > of front-end apps. > It could be
>>>>>>>>>> important to know that the underlying module text is _not_ > *NFC*.
>>>>>>>>>> > > That's not to lay down a requirement as to how search features
>>>>>>>>>> should be > designed, > but at least to provide the information in
>>>>>>>>>> case it does matter for some > types of search option. > > Like
>>>>>>>>>> other things in .conf files, a key can also be _educational_. > It
>>>>>>>>>> may prompt developers and users to ask, /*Why did they do this?*/ >
>>>>>>>>>> > cf. It was _almost by accident_ that in 2014, I first came across
>>>>>>>>>> this > aspect of using Unicode for Biblical Hebrew. > /It applies
>>>>>>>>>> only to texts with _both_ vowel accents and cantillation./ > > Even
>>>>>>>>>> though it's mentioned in our developers' wiki, it's all too easily >
>>>>>>>>>> missed by other CrossWire volunteers. > > Best regards, > > David >
>>>>>>>>>> > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > >> -------- Original Message
>>>>>>>>>> -------- >> Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Module .conf files, Unicode
>>>>>>>>>> Normalization >> Local Time: 6 January 2018 5:19 PM >> UTC Time: 6
>>>>>>>>>> January 2018 17:19 >> From: greg.helli...@gmail.com >> To: David
>>>>>>>>>> Haslam , SWORD Developers' >> Collaboration Forum >> >> Why would
>>>>>>>>>> the front end or engine need to know this information? Would >> it
>>>>>>>>>> help the front end developers or users to know it? What do we gain
>>>>>>>>>> >> by adding this? (I'm not implying it wouldn't be beneficial. But
>>>>>>>>>> the >> only thing I know about Unicode is how the different UTF
>>>>>>>>>> encodings >> work, so I have no idea what use this information could
>>>>>>>>>> be. I also >> think changes to formats and information standards
>>>>>>>>>> should be >> conservative instead of liberal) >> >> --Greg >> >> On
>>>>>>>>>> Jan 6, 2018 11:01, "David Haslam" > > wrote: >> >> Dear all, >> >>
>>>>>>>>>> We've known for quite a few years that there are aspects of >>
>>>>>>>>>> *Biblical Hebrew* that mean we should _avoid_ converting the >>
>>>>>>>>>> Unicode source text to *NFC* when we build a module. >> >> This
>>>>>>>>>> prompts me to suggest that we ought to define a new *key* for >>
>>>>>>>>>> .conf files. >> >> *Normalization=NFC* (this would be the default,
>>>>>>>>>> and may be >> _omitted_ for the vast majority of modules) >>
>>>>>>>>>> *Normalization=Custom* (we should include this in certain Biblical
>>>>>>>>>> >> Hebrew modules) >> >> This would make it clear to front-end
>>>>>>>>>> developers and users alike >> that the source text was _not_
>>>>>>>>>> converted to NFC during module build. >> i.e. *osis2mod* was used
>>>>>>>>>> intentionally with the *-N* switch, in >> _accordance with the
>>>>>>>>>> requirements of the source text provider_. >> >> The Unicode source
>>>>>>>>>> text may already be encoded in *UTF-8* ; this >> memo is /only
>>>>>>>>>> /about normalization. >> >> In the rare eventuality that there could
>>>>>>>>>> arise a requrement for >> any of the other three normalization forms
>>>>>>>>>> (*NFD*, *NFKC*, *NFKD*) >> defined by the Unicode Consortium, >>
>>>>>>>>>> these would also be permitted values for the conf file key. >> >> A
>>>>>>>>>> further benefit arises when a module needs to be updated. >> If the
>>>>>>>>>> modules team sees that the .conf file includes the line >>
>>>>>>>>>> *Normalization=Custom* >> they would be forewarned against
>>>>>>>>>> converting to NFC through >> /inadvertently/ omitting the *-N*
>>>>>>>>>> switch during module build. >> >> _Aside_: Another language with a
>>>>>>>>>> need for non-standard >> normalization is *Tibetan*. We don't yet
>>>>>>>>>> have a module in that script. >> >> Best regards, >> >> David >> >>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. >> >> >>
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