On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 4:28 PM Tom Sullivan <i...@beforgiven.info
<mailto:i...@beforgiven.info>> wrote:
Greg:
The repositories do not contain the latest versions. For example, the
Debian Buster repository presents Xiphos 4.1, not the latest 4.2.
1) This is the benefit and curse of Debian. It refuses to let new
versions of packages in that are not bugfix and ONLY bugfix. Nothing
with new features at all is allowed into a stable/released version of
Debian. It's a benefit to users who need the stability (read: server
administrators and people who develop software for running on those
stable versions of Debian) but it's a terrible experience for end users.
If you're using Debian anything (other than sid, their testing release)
for an end-user desktop, then you're going to have a bad experience.
2) This is, again, an issue with the distro, and not with Crosswire or
Xiphos. There is nothing we can do to affect upstream's release cadence
and rules. Now, if the Xiphos project had enough developer manpower to
maintain patches to the 4.1 series as well as continue development
towards 4.2, then maybe we'd be able to get a 4.1.1 and 4.1.2 into old
Debian versions. That's what large projects do (like Debian itself), but
we just don't have the developer bandwidth to maintain multiple branches
on any of our software. But none of our software is intended for server,
long-lived boxes, either. It's all end user focused stuff.
That is how I ended up reporting bugs that had been fixed. It is a wide
problem; I mention Xiphos, not as a bad example, but because I happened
to remember the version numbers.
The same would be true of Sword. 1.8.1 is not just a bugfix release of
the 1.8 series. It introduced some minor new functionality so,
technically, it would not have been permitted into the Debian repository
if anyone was checking closely. This is just how we handle our software,
again, because we lack the manpower to keep multiple development streams
flowing.
I would, again, submit that your issue is actually with your chosen
distribution. Its documentation appears to be inadequate, and it's
lulled you into using a distribution that's not targeting your use case.
You might try running Fedora (or Ubuntu and not staying on LTS versions)
which have much more generous update policies. I can tell you, for
instance, that Xiphos compiles very nicely on current Fedora versions
with a few very simple commands. I happen to know this because I
maintain both our Xiphos CI process and the packages in the repositories
for Xiphos. Now, I haven't updated the packages to 4.2.1 yet, for
Xiphos, because I was busy helping with the CI and the release of 4.2.1,
but due to the CI I know that compiling for Fedora 32 will be a breeze.
Compiling for Ubuntu is a little more of a challenge, because of the
missing dependencies, but Caleb is working on create a dedicated
repository on Ubuntu's infrastructure just for that. And Caleb, myself,
Dom, and Karl are all working to resolve those issues so that, in the
future, a 4.3 or 4.4 will be able to make it back into the Debian repos
and eventually into the Ubuntu "universe" repositories.
So maybe give us a shot, still, on a distro that's meant for you? :)
--Greg
Tom
Tom Sullivan
i...@beforgiven.info
FAX: 815-301-2835
---------------------
On 5/13/20 5:21 PM, Greg Hellings wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 3:57 PM Tom Sullivan
<i...@beforgiven.info <mailto:i...@beforgiven.info>
> <mailto:i...@beforgiven.info <mailto:i...@beforgiven.info>>> wrote:
>
> Y'all:
>
> First, I recognize that as a writer and long retired
developer and
> engineer (and thus obsolete) that in terms of technical
issues, I am
> way
> out of my league with all you C++ programmers and experts.
>
> Second, I want to thank all of you for your hard work.
Compared to what
> is available for Windows and Mac users, available Bible
software and
> tools are sparse. You work as volunteers and on a shoestring
budget.
> Very many thanks. Without your work, I would be back to books
and paper
> without being able to search, compare versions, etc., with
such ease.
> Linux users are definitely an under served people group and
you fill a
> big need.
>
> Some of you may remember my SwordHammer project. Frankly, it has
> crashed
> and burned. Due to an architecture decision that was not the
best, it
> became unwieldy. And now, due to changes in my life, I cannot
continue,
> though I had started on a new architecture. This has two
consequences:
> 1. There probably is not any longer reason to continue on
this list
> much
> longer.
> 2. I got an appreciation for the huge problem caused by
incompatible
> Linux distros. For example, I did not know that Ubuntu users were
> limited to sudo, instead of being able to run as root.
>
> Many of my previous interactions with this list have been
caused by my
> use of obsolete versions. I cannot help it. I seem only able
to install
> packages from the Debian repository (or download a *.deb
suitable for
> Debian Buster and install). I recently tried to compile and
install
> Sword (which worked), BibleTime (which crashed), and Xiphos
(which I
> was
> not able to compile by various tries.) There are errors in
the docs,
> and
> discrepancies between docs, and who knows what.) I failed. So
I am
> stuck, and that is not mainly your fault. The problem is that
there is
> no Linux-wide packaging or installation system. It may or may
not be
> technically feasible, I don't know). When things go wrong, I
often have
> no idea how to fix them.
>
>
> You really shouldn't have to download any files. You should only
have to
> run "sudo apt update && sudo apt install bibletime". Or, if you
want to
> compile BibleTime from source but use the packaged Sword library,
"sudo
> apt install libsword-dev". Currently, Xiphos is not compatible with
> Debian/Ubuntu because it depends on ancient libraries that are not
> available in those distributions anymore. However, packagers for
those
> distros, until recently, were maintaining a heavily patched
version of
> Xiphos that was avilable in their repositories. All that was
needed was
> "sudo apt install xiphos". No downloading or building or manually
> finding dependencies.
>
>
> So I have two suggestions here, but let me start with an analogy.
> When I
> have to buy a new vehicle, my concern is not if the seat is
nice and
> the
> radio works and the vanity light works. I want it to safely
take me
> where I want to go. If there is a rip in the seat or dents in
the body
> or some rust or something, I can live with that. So, I am
willing to
> live with what is in the repositories and not waste everybody
else's
> time with bug reports. I apologize for doing that. It was not
> intentional, but that is what happened.
>
> Suggestion 1: Clean up documentation. Prime exhibit: May
Crosswire page
> refers to Sword 1.8.0 with link for months with no mention of
1.8.1.
>
>
> I'm not sure where you're looking. This is the download page for
Sword
> source http://crosswire.org/sword/develop/index.jsp and it mentions
> 1.8.1 without incident.
>
>
> Suggestion 2: For the more popular distros, provide ready-to-go
> packages, .deb files (or equivalent, such as .rpm) for
installs and
> updates, even if they do not hit the repositories until
later. This
> will
> get users access who are not experts. In my opinion, for what
it is
> worth, this is at least as important as new features. Also
allow users
> an option to automatically check for updates and tell where
to get a
> new
> package. I understand that this takes time and work. I would
rather get
> some new features and bug fixes, and be able to get and use
them, than
> new features I will never see because I can't compile or
something. I
> rather think that others are also in my position as well.
>
>
> This is usually a Very Bad Idea for upstream projects. Every
distro has
> its own quirks, foibles, and differences. For instance, gtkhtml
is still
> avilable on Fedora but not on Ubuntu or Debian. As such, Xiphos
can be
> compiled rather readily on Fedora but not on Debian/Ubuntu
without heavy
> patching of the source to disable the editor features. Those are
details
> already managed by the packagers of those distributions and are
quite a
> nightmare for every upstream project to keep track of. Nor is it
easy to
> keep separate the very tiny tweaks that make up the Debian ->
Ubuntu ->
> Mint/Pop/etc food chain where downstream distributions consume
upstream
> packages in some manner. Providing a build is not something upstream
> projects like Sword ought to do.
>
> Should our docs be updated so that they work in those distros, where
> possible? Yes. But it sounds like most of your difficulty was
with the
> package manager on the Debian (or Ubuntu?) system you were using.
For an
> end user, you should have just "sudo apt install <my pacage>" and
been
> able to get along without trouble. The fact you weren't was a
failure on
> the part of the distribution. Not on Sword, Crosswire, BibleTime, or
> Xiphos. I have no idea what your ultimate goal is, though, so I
can't
> give you more particular details than that.
>
> --Greg
>
>
> For what it is worth, and sorry it is so long. Sorry again
for wasting
> all your time in the past. God bless you and keep up all the
good work.
> It is not perfect, but it is definitely good and I use your
stuff many
> hours a week and every day.
>
> Sincerely,
> Tom Sullivan
>
> --
> Tom Sullivan
> i...@beforgiven.info
> FAX: 815-301-2835
> ---------------------
>
>
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