Drupal dev here. :-) Drupal has been accused of being "procedural AOP"
before, and not entirely inaccurately.
Be very careful with that. AOP is a flame thrower; very powerful, but
can also burn you quite badly. If you're not extremely careful, it can
make effective unit testing next to impossible.
That's not to say don't use it, but coming from a system that is built
around AOP principles... I would not recommend baking full-on AOP into
Symfony. Rather, let's just make events faster so they're cheaper to use.
--Larry Garfield
On 12/03/2012 01:01 AM, Victor Berchet wrote:
Florin,
What a nice rant !
But as for most rant, only a few lines of you message is relevant (the
other having been treated in previous message or being non-argument)
let me handle them:
- "comments": annotation is one way to configure AOP, use php/xml/yml
if you like,
- "writing events instead of comments":
- you can use AOP with 3rd party libs that do not use events
- you won't have the overhead of dispatching an event if no
listeners is attached to the events (ie you can logging in your debug
environment that has 0 impact in your prod env).
As I state in my second message, my intention is more to promote AOP
than to have something in Symfony. You seem to be this kind of people
that have problems with (not so) new concepts, you can go read me
first message again then !
The only part of your message I like is "I'll change my mind".
For #2679, I don't really see how it relates with AOP nor why it is a
bug - As a reminder the issue state that http://admin-zone/<any url>
should return a 403 even if <any url> does not correspond to an
existing route. It currently returns a 404 if the route does not
exist. This is because the routing is now triggered before the
security, for good reasons.
Cheers,
Victor
Le dimanche 2 décembre 2012 22:29:55 UTC+1, Florin Patan a écrit :
I got a question for you as well as for the rest of the community :)
Do you really needed?
Is is something that you can't finish your project without?
I'm not saying AOP is bad, the main scope is quite nice on paper,
academically, but also OLD! Some references for AOP date back to
1994-5.
I have to admit, until hearing about it from Victor, I didn't had
a clue about it, now I just know what it is but I won't use it.
Why?
Simple. I don't want more layers of abstractions between my
original code and the server. I want to keep it as simple and
clean as possible even if it means that I won't be able to write
comments that are shorter that the plain old code. Plus, as far as
I can tell, I could just as well be using events for my needs
instead of comments, or maybe I just didn't got the full view of
it. What would that be good for, writing events instead of
comments?!? Maybe I just want to have better traceability for the
code. Maybe it's better to know that if I write a piece a code,
the other people that will come after me when I'm not there, will
be able to see __CODE__ not comments or code hidden somewhere
else. I want to be able to see what's going to be executed as much
as possible.
Ok, so there'll be a AOP extension. GREAT! Now convince the
sys-admins to install it. More over you know what they'll ask? Is
this safe? Does it crash under load? does it block something? Can
it have memory leaks? Is it threadsafe? Can't you program without it?
And if you've never heard those questions about __ANY__ third
party or even PHP extension then either your sys-admins don't
care, don't know, do extensive tests and know what you need it
for/how it works better that you or you simply didn't worked into
a enterprise environment.
So we have this already, Doctrine is using annotations, Symfony2
is doing it and so on but the question stands: Do we __REALLY__
need? In the framework? When everyone on the industry wants faster
frameworks, easier to use features from the frameworks, a
better/faster PHP engine and so on? Is it stopping Symfony2 from
being waay faster that Zend Framework2? Is it stopping Symfony2 to
be clean and relatively easy to pick up by new people?
I know, once you've found a new toy you'll see it used everywhere
but you always have to ask yourself: do I really need it here? Is
PHP suited for AOP? Do I need a way to change the classes at
runtime? Do I need a way to hide the implementation from the
programmer who'll then spend hours trying to debug something that
he doesn't understand?
And maybe the most relevant case, can you explain me __WHY__ do
you need it in the framework? And if you are going to say: enforce
SRP then please don't. Just because you write it somewhere else
then compile it at runtime/cache time and write a comment for it
it doesn't mean you got your responsibilities separated, it means
that you just managed to perform the illusion of separating the
concern to the end user while introducing him to whole new level
of where's this executed and why is this not performing what I want???
But I guess we indeed need another layer of abstraction/design
pattern/paradigm in PHP, which is supposed to be simple, clean,
fast, not like Java, or insert your clearly more preferred
language here, which has all those cool features that we can't
play with in PHP :( If you like so much coool things, just look at
the mess that Zend Framework 2 is.
And if you like AOP and want to help, can you debug and fix this
please? https://github.com/symfony/symfony/issues/2679
<https://github.com/symfony/symfony/issues/2679> my mortal skills
aren't enough to understand the Security component to fix it.
Maybe when PHP will have native support for the features needed to
do a clean AOP implementation, I'll change my mind (for sure), or
maybe that will happen faster then that. Who knows? :)
Just my two cents from a non-academic / theoretic point of view.
Best regards.
On Thursday, September 30, 2010 8:42:16 PM UTC+3, Yuen-Chi Lian
wrote:
Hi,
I searched the entire group but couldn't find many discussions
on AOP.
The SF2 Security discussion (http://bit.ly/sf2sec) got me to
wonder will AOP ever be part of SF2. If yes, are we going to
write it all or we will use the state-of-art AOP solution in
PHP (which is?)?
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