> On Mar 24, 2014, at 5:42 AM, Joachim Durchholz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Am 24.03.2014 01:58, schrieb Richard Fateman:
>>
>> Now we must address what is meant by integer.   In common lisp, integer
>> meansarbitrary precision integer.
> > Consequently, every rational number IS an integer/integer.
>> [...]
> > It seems to me the meanings of words in sympy should correspond to
> > their meanings in mathematics not some hack mockery of the word that
> > appears in one or even several programming languages.
>
> Your position seems inconsistent - you derive your idea about the nature of 
> rational numbers from Common Lisp, yet you denounce exactly that kind of 
> reasoning as "some hack mockery of the word that appears in [...] programming 
> languages".
>
>> It seems to me the meanings of words in sympy should correspond to their
>> meanings in mathematics not some hack mockery of the word that appears in
>> one or even several programming languages.  The data structure for IEEE
>> double-float is used to represent a subset of the rational numbers.
>
> To paraphrase, IEEE numbers are some hack mockery of the word that appear in 
> hardware implementations.
>
>> You could also have a data structure for "rational as the ratio of two
>> arbitrary precision integers,."
> > That's been found fairly useful for symbolic programming.
>
> Isn't that what SymPy does?
>
> ----
>
> Just to demonstrate how far away "meaning in mathematics" is from any 
> computerized representation, including that of Common List, here's a short 
> (and probably slightly wrong) description of what rational numbers "are":
>
> Going down to the very foundations, rational numbers "are" the minimum model 
> that satisfies the field axioms (see model theory for the definition of 
> "minimum" and why "the" minimum exists for these axioms).

You also need to add a characteristic 0 condition. Otherwise, the
smallest field is the trivial field.

Aaron Meurer

>
> Most importantly, rationals "are" not a pair of integers, because for integer 
> pairs, (1,2) != (2,4), but for rationals, 1/2 = 2/4.
> Integer pairs are merely a possible *representation* of rationals.
>
> And now, for fun, the real numbers:
>
> These "are" the minimum model that satisfies the total and the dense ordering 
> axioms.
> No mention of field properties. The real numbers just happen to have the 
> rational numbers embedded (where "embedded" is a term with a strict 
> definition in model theory).
>
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