On 9.12.2020 17.14, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
On Dec 9, 2020, at 12:58 AM, Topi Miettinen <toiwo...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 9.12.2020 2.42, Jarkko Sakkinen wrote:
On Wed, Dec 09, 2020 at 02:15:28AM +0200, Jarkko Sakkinen wrote:
On Wed, Dec 09, 2020 at 01:15:27AM +0200, Topi Miettinen wrote:
As a further argument, I just did this on a Fedora system:
$ find /dev -perm /ugo+x -a \! -type d -a \! -type l
No results. So making /dev noexec doesn't seem to have any benefit.
It's no surprise that there aren't any executables in /dev since
removing MAKEDEV ages ago. That's not the issue, which is that
/dev is a writable directory (for UID=0 but no capabilities are
needed) and thus a potential location for constructing unapproved
executables if it is also mounted exec (W^X).
UID 0 can just change mount options, though, unless SELinux or similar is used.
And SELinux can protect /dev just fine without noexec.
Well, mounting would need CAP_SYS_ADMIN in addition to UID 0. Also SELinux
is not universal and the policies might not contain all users or services.
-Topi
What's the data that supports having noexec /dev anyway? With root
access I can then just use something else like /dev/shm mount.
Has there been out in the wild real world cases that noexec mount
of would have prevented?
Typo: "of" = "of /dev"
For me this sounds a lot just something that "feels more secure"
without any measurable benefit. Can you prove me wrong?
The debate is circled around something not well defined. Of course you
get theoretically more safe system when you decrease priviliges anywhere
in the system. Like you could start do grazy things with stuff that
unprivilged user has access, in order to prevent malware to elevate to
UID 0 in the first place.
I think where this go intellectually wrong is that we are talking about
*default installation* of a distribution. That should have somewhat sane
common sense access control settings. For like a normal desktop user
noexec /dev will not do any possible favor.
Then there is the case when you want to harden installation for an
application, let's' say some server. In that case you will anyway
fine-tune the security settings and go grazy enough with hardening.
When you tailor a server, it's a standard practice to enumerate and
adjust the mount points if needed.
I think we agree that there's a need for either way to allow SGX (if default is
hardened) or a hardening option (in the opposite case). For systemd I see two
approaches:
1. Default noexec /dev, override with something like
- ExecPaths=/dev
- MountOptions=/dev:rw,exec,dev,nosuid
- or even MountOptions=/dev/sgx:rw,exec,dev,nosuid
- ProtectDev=no
- AllowSGX=yes
2. Default exec /dev, override with
- NoExecPaths=/dev
- MountOptions=/dev:rw,noexec,dev,nosuid
- ProtectDev=yes
- DenySGX=yes
I'd prefer 1. but of course 2. would be reasonable.
I would argue for 2, for the following reason. I absolutely agree that
hardening a system by making it impossible to create executable code
dynamically is valuable, but I don’t think it’s a good default. By default,
programs like gcc and clang should work, but so should JITs, and JITs are
getting more popular and powerful all the time. In a default setting that
allows JITs, etc, I see no benefit at all to making /dev noexec. To the
contrary, making /dev noexec seems like plugging a little restricted corner of
code creation (because it requires UID=0) while allowing the easy ways (/tmp,
/home, /dev/shm, unshare(2), mmap(), etc). By all means let admins harden
this, but I see no reason to apply some of the hardening when the rest is
disabled.
Makes sense, especially if anything in theory could be expected to use
SGX. In practice, probably no system services will at least initially,
so hardening knobs make also sense.
To summarize, I neither understand the intended target audience.
We have something in common: me neither. What's the target audience for SGX?
What's the use case? What are the users: browsers, system services? How would
applications use SGX? Should udev rules for /dev/sgx make it available to any
logged in users with uaccess tags?
I would certainly like it to be available to all software, with the possible
exception of extra-hardened systems. Using SGX is not really an interesting
attack surface. The main threat is that malware might use SGX to make itself
hard to reverse engineer.
Maybe also malware which can escape all means of detection, enforced by
the CPU? Though I don't know if any malware scanners for Linux work can
check for fileless, memory only malware.
In Intel’s original vision, only specially licensed vendors could create SGX
software, but Linux pushed back against this quite hard, and new CPUs allow
unlicensed enclaves. So your Skylake CPUs support SGX, but not on Linux.
Kudos to Linux for the push.
-Topi
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