On 2016-07-19 22:01, Kevin Kenny wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 3:10 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>>> Il giorno 19 lug 2016, alle ore 20:41, Colin Smale <[email protected]>
>>> ha scritto:
>>>
>>> If you need explicit permission, it's access=private, even if there are
>>> loads of people with that explicit permission.
>>
>>
>>
>> that's also what I had written on the imports list, but I think it's maybe
>> time to rethink this and evaluate if we shouldn't have more possibilities to
>> differentiate. Surely it is a big difference between a totally private
>> driveway or industrial site and government land where you need a permission
>> but everybody will get it almost automatically?
>>
>> Or another case again in some Italian towns: you need a permission to access
>> with a motor vehicle, but you will only get it if you live there (still,
>> these are not pedestrian like streets, they're more like normal roads, and
>> besides residents psv, taxi and police, and public administration get
>> permits).
>>
>> Not everywhere is GB where current access restrictions seem to be sufficient
>> for describing the situation.
>
> Thanks, Martin, that's the point I'm trying to make, and it sounds as if I
> may have convinced you!
>
> The High Peaks Wilderness is a lot more like a public park than it is like
> your driveway. Should it be access=private because on the way in, you have to
> fill out a form and leave it in the letterbox at a place like this [1]? Does
> that change fundamentally if you have to download a form like this [2] from a
> website, fill it out, print it, and have one copy on your car's dashboard and
> one in your person? That sort of regime: "it's open to the public, but you
> have to ask for permission explicitly, which you'll always get if you're
> following the rules" is common in backcountry areas of the United States.
>
> It's more a mandatory notification scheme than anything else: if I've picked
> up a High Peaks permit, the rangers know who I am and what my plans are, so
> they've got an idea where to look if I'm reported missing (which God
> forbid!). In a few very stressed areas, they start limiting the number of
> permits and using them for capacity management, but that's the exception, not
> the rule. When you consider that on my last trip to the High Peaks, I was at
> times over 30 km from the nearest road and spent four days before my first
> supply stop, it's understandable that they want some sort of warning what
> your plans are. Europe has very few places that are that remote.
>
> It really still has the feel of 'public park with a few formalities.' It's
> much more like 'public park' than any of the trips that I've done on private
> land, where I've needed to ask politely, and answers have varied all over the
> map:
>
> - "Who the hell are you?" (from a farmer brandishing a shotgun)
> - "Absolutely not!"
> - "A day-use membership is $55/year for individuals and $65/year for
> families"
> - "Sure, go ahead, but make sure you pack out anything you pack in!"
> - "Don't go on the south forty, I let the bull out of the barn and he don't
> like strangers nohow."
> - (At a small resort, where I was asking to cross their land to get to a
> route") "So, am I bursting at the seams with paying guests that I can't let
> you park? Please park over by the barn and don't block the driveways!"
>
> Instead, I know exactly what to expect and know that permission will not be
> refused for a trip that follows the rules.
Your examples feel like private land to me. Except for the one with the
bull...
Maybe this would help me see the distinction:
How much trouble are you in, if you enter without explicit permission?
Are you (in theory at least) risking a fine? Would it be a criminal or
statutory offence, or a civil wrong against the landowner? Or are there
no sanctions? How likely are you to get caught? If a policeman
challenges you for something, will they ask to see your permit?
//colin
Links:
------
[1]
https://fortysixupsanddowns.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/roaring-brook-trail-register.jpg
[2] http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/regions_pdf/newaccessprmt.pdf
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