Every street in Brussels HAS a name:fr tag. They also ALL have a name:nl tag.
An IPA representation also needs information about the language it is for. A name, even spelled with the exact same characters will be pronounced differently by a French speaker compared to a Ducht speaker. Sometimes very differently, sometimes it's simply a matter of which syllable to stress. Polyglot Op wo 19 sep. 2018 om 04:43 schreef Joseph Eisenberg < joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>: > Paul, > > Thank you for your comments. > Have you read the complete Proposal page > <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Default_Language_Format>? > Perhaps I need to improve the wording to clarify some of your concerns > > >”I'd rather have local languages mapped rather than the language the >>> renderer 'should' use.” >>> >>> By recording each name in a separate “name:<code>=*” tag, database users >>> and map makers will be able to pick the best name for their audience. >>> >> >> The best name for the audience is the one which matches the signage. It >> does me no good to see an English >> translation of a Russian street sign. >> > > This is true if your database use case is rendering a map for a local > audience. That's why the Openstreetmap Carto style renders names this way. > This proposal will not change the way names are rendered on the standard > map, except in the rare case where, for example, "name:fr=*" is present on > a feature in France but the "name=*" tag is missing. In this case it will > now render properly. > > But not all names are street or shop names. There are internationally know > features, like Mt Everest and the Yellow River, which have well-known names > in many names, which are quite different than the locally used name. Take a > look at the current rendering of Nepal or China. The Openstreetmap Carto > style is useful if you are in Nepal and want to find a sign point you > towards Mt Everest, but a person sitting at their computer in Brazil will > have trouble finding the mountain on the standard map style. > > The French style already renders names in French preferentially, but this > loses the information about the locally used name. I agree that this is a > problem! > But with the current use of names, it's not possible to make an > international map style that shows French names and the locally name at the > same time. > If you try to render "name:fr=*" and "name=*" together, you'll render the > French name twice for every street in Brussels > > >> The only thing the map should render is the name as it is displayed on >> signage. >> > > For local routing yes, for Openstreetmap Carto yes, but all applications? > Not always > > >> It would also be useful if the IPA characters representing how a local >> would pronounce that name is present so applications could feed that >> to text-to-speech. >> > > Yes! IPA is a great idea. I believe "name:ipa=*" could work for this. Want > to write up a proposal? :-) > > >> It is also somewhat useful, for multilingual signage, to use name:xx and >> name:yy to hold the individual >> language components of that name. >> > > You've got it! That's exactly what we want to encourage. If every street > in Brussels has name:fr=xx and name:nl=yy, the French map style could > render both. > (<joke> Or being the French, they might just render "name:fr=yy", but > there's nothing to be done about that. <joke>) > >> >> The local name still needs to be specified so that database users know >>> what name or names are actually used “on the ground” vs foreign names. The >>> default language format tag makes this possible, but separates this >>> function from the name=* tag. And the proposal includes a language:local >>> tag so that all local names can be shown, even those that are less common >>> or in a minority language. >>> >> >> No, no and thrice no. >> > > ??? What are you objecting to here? The "language:local=<lg>" tag? > This will not be rendered by Openstreetmap Carto style or anyone really. > It just lets database users that certain languages are actually locally > used names, vs foreign names. > > For example, Puncak Trikora (id) / Wilhelmina Top (nl) / Mount Trikora > (en) is the 2nd or 3rd tallest mountain in Indonesia. It's currently tagged > with name="Puncak Trikora", which is appropriate, because that's the name > used in Indonesian, the official langauge, and would be recognized by most > people in the country. But there is also a local name in the Lani language, > which is only known to people who live closest to the mountain and isn't > used on any offical signs. This language:local= tag would show that the > Lani name for the mountain is in fact a local name, not a foreign language > name. > > It's probably not a tag that will be used much in Europe, where minority > languages often have official recognition and signage, but it will be quite > helpful in parts of the world with many languages, particularly for > mountains and rivers that may have foreign names from the colonial period. > > >> If this proposal is implemented, map makers and database users will have >>> many more options for using names in data or as map labels. >>> >> >> Why would they want to? What possible use does it serve? Most street >> names and even place names are opaque. >> They may once have had meaning but no longer do. Near me is "Market >> Lane" but at neither end of it is there a market. >> Back in medieval times there was a market, perhaps, but it's been >> hundreds of years since there was a market there. >> Several miles from me is Felin Wen. That's Welsh for "White Mill." It's >> not been a mill for many, many years. >> > > It's incorrect to tag name:en=White Mill, then, because the local name > used by English speakers is "Felin Wen." > > I believe this is clear on the name:<lg>= wiki page and the name=* tag > page, but I'd be happy to put in a clearer definition there, if necessary. > > I absolutely agree that no one should be making up translated name:<lg>= > tags. The language-specific name tags should only be used for names that > exist in the real world, on the ground. > > >> For example, a vector map on a smartphone app could show names in the >>> user’s language by default. But when the user selects a feature by tapping >>> or clicking, the name on the local language would also be shown. >>> >> >> Wrong way around. The sane thing to do is show the local name, because >> that's what I'd be looking for on signage. >> > > Sure, good point, the other way around would be best for most purposes. > App designers will now have the choice, and users can decide what settings > they prefer. > The app could even detect the user's location and use that to help guess > what name lables to show. > When I'm in China, I'll want to see the names in Chinese characters, but > when I'm back home in the USA and just browsing around, it would be nice to > be able to recognize the Yangtze or Yellow River, or Mount Everest, on the > map. > > Joseph > _______________________________________________ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >
_______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging