These are some valid points, and I also have some input to that, but are you sure you want to discuss this on the tagging ML? The talk ML might be a better spot for this, this topic has already strayed quite far from the original topic. (And maybe start the topic on a more positive prospect instead of with a rant ;-)
Tobias On 23/05/2019 21:58, Nick Bolten wrote: >> Yes, it would be great. There is plenty of negative emotion on both sides >> and it would be great to reverse this (for example title that I used was >> frankly stupid what I realized after sending the message). > > OSM needs an alternative for community tagging discussions outside of these > mailing lists. Ones that people will actually use and that have a reasonable, > community-oriented code of conduct. I have talked to 10X more people about my > `crossing` proposals outside of this mailing list (in-person, personal > emails, slack, etc.) and the differences could not be more stark: > > # My experiences with OSMers in other contexts: > - Very friendly, all focused on making maps better, highly motivated to > donate their time to help others via the map. > - Disagreements are pleasant. Both sides acknowledge the other point of view > and usually come around to a compromise. > - There is interest in knowing more: lots of questions back and forth. > - Objections are qualified and polite. > - 10s-100s of people giving feedback on a single idea. > > # My experience with this mailing list: > - Quick to exasperate. > - You will be assumed to be coming to the table in bad faith. > - You will probably be insulted at some point, potentially sworn at. > - The same 8 or so people respond to posts out of a community of tens of > thousands of people, companies, non-profits, etc. > - The odd situation of absolute certainty in completely incompatible opinions > from those that do respond. > - Difficult for people to discover. How do we know that the opinions shared > here are in any way representative of the community, given that so few > discover + participate in it? > - Difficult to filter for relevance. Have to set up email filters and/or > specialized search queries. > - Zero real synchronization with OSM editors, the only way people add data to > the map. Blame doled out everywhere, but very little in the way of > collaboration, no real venue for doing so (see previous bullet points). > > Focusing on the idea of being an "arbiter", does that sound like a good way > to figure out which tags are good/acceptable? > > When I was mentoring a group of students a few years ago, several were > offended by the condescending and insulting responses they received on this > mailing list, all because they suggested making a coherent way of combining > existing tags into a pedestrian schema and doing a carefully-vetted import. > The import was so carefully-vetted that we later realized it wasn't even > really an import, but this didn't stop there being several insulting > accusations from several long-term OSMers on these lists. Those students were > motivated by helping other people and spent literal months attempting to > gather enough information from underspecified tagging standards and would > have been put off the community entirely if it weren't for the project's > momentum and much more productive and friendly interactions with local > OSMers. I think it's probably a good thing that it's so hard to even know > that there is a mailing list, as users have a negative experience. > > To boot, there are technical problems solved by virtually every other > messaging system: > - Difficult to discover. > - Virtually impossible for new users to join recent discussions - they need > to have subscribed to the list first. > - Discovering old discussions is difficult, requires some nerdy prowess. > - Terrible security practices. Passwords sent in plain text over email. No > encryption. I was almost put off the mailing list entirely when I saw this. > Completely unacceptable. > > Gripes aside, I have a suggestion: move these discussions to a real forum > system, properly organized around regional/topic-specific/tagging > discussions. It could be a revamped https://forum.openstreetmap.org/ or > something fancier and slack-like (like riot chat). Have actual moderators and > code of conduct. The current mode of communication is systematically flawed. > > On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 12:06 PM Mateusz Konieczny <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > 23 May 2019, 18:32 by [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>: > > reverse this development. > > Yes, it would be great. There is plenty of negative emotion on both sides > and it > would be great to reverse this (for example title that I used was frankly > stupid > what I realized after sending the message). > > I had to rewrite this last paragraph several times, but, well, I hope > this does not come across the wrong way... > it can certainly not continue like this, so ... why not interview > him, honestly and with open outcome, how should the collaboration and > communication in OSM happen in the future from his point of view? Would he > rather feel relieved or rather feel betrayed if the gatekeeping (~deployment) > is done by other people? Does he really feel alienated (because I assumed it) > from the community and if yes, why? And most importantly, what would it take > to reverse this? > > +1, though it would be tricky to find someone both interested in doing > this, with time to do that, > and not already involved in a poor way > _______________________________________________ > Tagging mailing list > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > > _______________________________________________ > Tagging mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
