On 2015-03-02 15:40, Sander Deryckere wrote : > I'm a newbie, and I want to make a change in Brussels (say a new > street was created). I look at the other names, and see they have a > name:nl, name:fr and name tag, the name tag contains both names > separated by a dash. So I add my street using that principle. > > Do you really think newbies would look if it's a hyphen, en dash or em > dash? > > So I think, if we choose a default, we should stick to the keys on the > local keyboard (Belgian AZERTY), and preferably on the more > international keyboard layouts (like USA International - that's the > default USA QWERTY with a big number of alternative keys added to > support multiple languages). > > The other option is we don't choose a default, and accept multiple > ones, like spaced hyphens, spaced en dashes, spaced or non-spaced em > dashes, ... But I agree that it would be nice to have a guideline at > least. And in that case, my vote goes to the spaced hyphen as in > "name - name". > > But this is in fact for the Brussels community to decide. I don't go > to Brussels a lot, so I can't do many valuable contributions there. > > Regards, > Sander On 2015-03-02 15:09, Jo wrote : > In the name itself, there are no spaces around the -. So the separator > between to languages is really " - " including the spaces. > > We do have a problem for a very few streets which have 2 names because > they are on the border between two municipalities and which we want to > give 2 names to be "linguistically correct", but there aren't very > many of those. > > Using an em-dash is fine with me, as long as it can be done as a > mechanical edit, as I can't type them indeed and I'm not going to > copy/paste them one by one. > > Jo
I practically agree with Jo and Sander. But I think that a newbie can make any mistake like typing Saint - Josse... and that why he doesn't use em dashes is because he doesn't see any (anywhere) and because there is no OSM specification for that. So, I think that those who want to use a different character do the right thing and the others don't care. Remember that my primary point is not to *remove* em dashes without specifying a different character. Now, regarding the em dash itself, should we really "tag for the keyboard"? Is it because, unlike Unix, Windows is keyboard-disabled that OSM should be character-disabled? Or should we recommend to use a proper keyboard driver instead? This is exactly the same issue as typing oe instead of œ, which is a spelling mistake (and not using a spelling checker that will detect that mistake). But that doesn't seem apparent in all languages. But it's sure apparent in English when they want to type the names in their dictionaries <http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ch%C3%A2teau>. And there are many spelling errors of that type in OSM <http://overpass-turbo.eu/?q=LyoKVGhpcyBoYcSGYmVlbiBnxI1lcmF0ZWQgYnkgdGhlIG92xJJwxIlzLXR1cmJvIHdpemFyZC7EgsSdxJ9yaWdpbmFsIHNlxLBjaMSsxIk6CsOiwoDCnMS7bWV-PW9lxYjCnQoqLwpbb3V0Ompzb25dW3RpxYzFmcWbMjVdOwovL8SPxJTEnXIgcmVzdWx0cwooCiAgxa0gcXXEksSaxKNydCBmb3I6IMWIxYphxYx-xZDFksW9IG5vZGVbIsWLZSJ-IsWQIl0oe3tixKp4fX0pxavFvndhecacxp7GoMaixp_GpcanxqlvxqvGrcavxbNlbMSUacWfxrTGkcafxqHGo8a5xqjGqsasxq4Kx4_GgHDEt27GiMW0xbbFuMW6xabEmMaZecWrPsWrx5tza8eBxoF0Ow&c=BL7SAEs6IK&R> because of Windows. (Don't run this over Flanders or Germany and ignore imported words like koekoe; but I know some people who will rush running it over France: "Visit Paris in 2 days <http://overpass-turbo.eu/?q=LyoKVGhpcyBoYcSGYmVlbiBnxI1lcmF0ZWQgYnkgdGhlIG92xJJwxIlzLXR1cmJvIHdpemFyZC7EgsSdxJ9yaWdpbmFsIHNlxLBjaMSsxIk6CsOiwoDCnCLEu21lIn4ib8WOxYjCnQoqLwpbb3V0Ompzb25dW3RpxY3Fm8WdMjVdOwovL8SPxJTEnXIgcmVzdWx0cwooCiAgxa8gcXXEksSaxKNydCBmb3I6IMWIwpzFjGV-xZLFlMW_IG5vZGVbxYthxY3Fj8WRxY5dKHt7YsSqeH19KcWtxoB3YXnGnsaTxqLFkiLGpcanxqlvxqvGrcavxbVlbMSUacWhxrTGoMWOxZDGt8a5xqjGqsasxq4Kx4_GgnDEt27GisW2xbjFusW8xajEmMabecWtPsWtx5tza8eBxoN0Ow&c=BKoGQIDmsL&R>": Belgian people should Osmose France ;-) ). Recommending a proper keyboard driver (or Linux) would be killing a whole swarm with one stone. Fuzzy or not fuzzy, that is the question. Cheers André. > 2015-03-02 15:09 GMT+01:00 Jo <winfi...@gmail.com > <mailto:winfi...@gmail.com>>: > > In the name itself, there are no spaces around the -. So the > separator between to languages is really " - " including the spaces. > > We do have a problem for a very few streets which have 2 names > because they are on the border between two municipalities and > which we want to give 2 names to be "linguistically correct", but > there aren't very many of those. > > Using an em-dash is fine with me, as long as it can be done as a > mechanical edit, as I can't type them indeed and I'm not going to > copy/paste them one by one. > > Jo > > 2015-03-02 14:55 GMT+01:00 André Pirard <a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com > <mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com>>: > > On 2015-03-01 17:13, Frédéric Rodrigo wrote : >> English bellow. > Walloon cock-a-doodle-do ;-) >> >> >> Bonjour, >> >> J'ai ajouté une analyse spécifique aux zones multilingues >> dans Osmose. Elle n'est pour l'instant active que sur le >> Maroc et pour la région de Bruxelles. >> >> Pour Bruxelles l'analyse s'attend à retrouver les tags name, >> name:fr et name:nl avec "[name]" = "[name:fr] - [name:nl]" ou >> "[name]" = "[name:fr] - [name:nl]". Elle détecte des manques >> et des incohérences et propose des corrections. >> >> Si vous relevé des problèmes produit par cette analyses >> n'hésitez pas à me les remonter. >> Sur la carte : >> >> http://osmose.openstreetmap.fr/fr/map/#zoom=12&lat=35.7667&lon=-5.8256&item=5060&level=1%2C2%2C3 >> >> >> Et la liste des erreurs : >> >> http://osmose.openstreetmap.fr/fr/errors/?country=belgium_brussels_capital_region&item=5060 >> >> >> ------------------ >> >> Hi, >> >> I added a specific analysis on multilingual areas on Osmose >> QA. It is currently only active on Morocco and for the >> Brussels region. >> >> Brussels analysis attempts to retrieve the tags name, name:fr >> and name:nl with "[name]" = "[name:fr] - [name:nl]" or >> "[name]" = "[name:fr] - [name:nl]". It detects missing and >> inconsistencies and show possible corrections. >> >> If you see any problems with this analyzes do not hesitate to >> let me know. >> >> On the map: >> >> http://osmose.openstreetmap.fr/fr/map/#zoom=12&lat=35.7667&lon=-5.8256&item=5060&level=1%2C2%2C3 >> >> >> And the errors list: >> >> http://osmose.openstreetmap.fr/fr/errors/?country=belgium_brussels_capital_region&item=5060 >> >> >> >> Frédéric. > Hi, > > There is an issue with names containing dashes being separated > with dashes (Saint-Josse-ten-Noode - Sint-Joost-ten-Node). > That is as syntactically incorrect as separating with "," or > ";" strings containing those characters. Verdy_p solved that > issue elegantly by using em dash instead > (Saint-Josse-ten-Noode — Sint-Joost-ten-Node). > I don't understand why some people developed hatred for the em > dash, maybe because Windows' keyboard is short of easily > typing even one's own language characters (like œ, my Ubuntu > makes them <compose>oe and <compose>---), maybe because it's > mixed with other considerations, but the fact is that Frederik > Ramm from the DWG is vandalizing Verdy_p's work all over the > world (no less) by reverting his updates regardless of what > they're doing, maybe introducing an em dash together with > making corrections. Yes, dames en heren, the DWG is > introducing mistakes in OSM (no less). > I respect people hating em dash, but they should open a vote > for another character then. > I already discussed this issue on this list, mais ... les > paroles s'envolent. > Or maybe OSM is fuzzy, and no that does no make me feel good. > > Cheers > > André. > >
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