Hello Robin,
I highly agree with you.
The main reason for PTv2 not having as widespread adoption as it could
have is that it is not rendered, that is to say, it is not rendered on
OSM_carto (Osmand's rendering of PTv2 is near-perfect).
However, we're stuck with a rendering "committee" that for years have
delayed the rendering of PTv2 based on not having the right
[rendering]datamodel, and now that we have that datamodel, they
basically say "I oppose the PTv2" and closed all pull requests asking
for it in may 2019.
See my comment on
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3232#issuecomment-491007730
Tijmen / IIVQ
On 28-04-20 13:36, Robin Däneke wrote:
Any tag we could come up with is going to be a partial misnomer for what
we are trying to model in the Database. In OSM, there are lots of those…
highway=bus_stop on the side of the road is somewhat trivially
understandable, but that means we need railway=tram_stop,
railway=train_stop, waterway=ferry_stop and many other tags too, that
could all be made redundand by the „platform“ node/way/relation being in
a route relation that is that mean of transport.
The wonderful thing about databases is, that a lot of info kan be given
on relational levels and inherited by all relation members. We can make
a bunch of tags redundant by using one. And platform is the most
truthful there. In Vienna, the Networks (Verkehrsverbunde) are working
on only having bus stops, that have a visible, higher laying „platform“
(or some sort of sidewalk area) at each stop, and I can only imagine,
the more public_transport gets, the more a bus stop is going to be the
platform. I think we should not be tagging backwards here.
The pole is a part of the stop, but never „the stop“ itself, even if
some people tend to see it that way. Alternatively, call it
public_transport=stop. That would mean one area where pt stops. Then
that would be the same as a platform, unless it is a node, when that is
possibly just the pole. But for that, a useful micro-mapping tag
„public_transport=pole“ would make much more sense, once again then not
needing bus=yes,tram=yes or something like „bus_stop_pole“ „tram_stop_pole“…
This merging hw=bus_stop, rw=tram_stop into one platform or stop tag
will make the database much more lean. And in terms of highway=bus_stop
is difficult to remove: As this tag is the same as the platform (except
if it is a node connected to a street, then that is a „stop_position"
and can just be deleted) you could get one mechanical edit to take care
f it (after getting it approved by the community and/or DWG) So that tag
is the easiest to just purge from what it’s counterpart in p_t:v2 is!
A stop/platform node on the side of the road does the same, so this is
just redundancy, and as platform is the more versatile tag, it should
take precedence in this „tag-fight“.
Thanks for all the input.
KR
RobinD
Am 28.04.2020 um 12:20 schrieb Tony OSM <tonyo...@gmail.com
<mailto:tonyo...@gmail.com>>:
I like node highway=bus_stop for the reasons polyglot gives. bus_stop
is here to stay cos there are too many to change, by the side of the
highway they give directionality depending on the customary side of
the road for driving.
public_transport=platform works well for train and some trams. To me a
platform is a construct to assist people to get on or off the
transport vehicle. As a waiting area - that use is secondary.
In GB some authorities are raising the area around a bus stop to
enable wheelchair users easier access to buses - so yes a platform tag
is appropriate, but not for a pole placed in the ground or pedestrian
part of the road which is the default for buses where I live.
stop_position node - to me has no function - for buses their stop
position is the bus stop; for trains they stop at the platform; where
I live we have 2,3,4,5,6 car trains, the front of the train stops at
one of two defined positions depending on the number of cars.
Simplification of PTV2 may be helpful, but I have had no strong
frustrations when using it.
Regards
TonyS999
On 28/04/2020 09:46, Jo wrote:
The basic objection they voice is why need 2 tags, if 1 does the job.
highway=bus_stop
is not exactly nonsensical. It's concise and expresses what is meant.
(OK, it's not a highway and my preference is to map it next to the
highway)
public_transport=platform
was designed at first to not need a mode of transport like
bus=yes/tram=yes. I am the one who proposed adding it, so that it
COULD start replacing highway=bus_stop back in 2012.
There is not always a platform present, so it's a bit of a misnomer
as well.
Anyway, someone who wants to render a bus stop ideally wants to look
at a single tag, not a combination of 2, apparently. For a long time
it was supposedly a technical problem, but as soon as that was
resolved somewhere around 2017, it was still considered problematic
to look at 2 tags.
I wish you good luck with proposing another way of mapping public
transport. Many have tried before you. It's really hard to beat
status quo. And the status quo is not the same across the planet. If
you can propose something that is both simpler, more elegant and
still expressive enough for all usecases, I'll vote yes on it.
Polyglot
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