Third local mapper chimes in: As weird as the cartography will look (and I've seen it appear as such on OSM in other U.S. cities), Route 7 through Burlington has no business being listed as primary. I can hit a maximum of 25mph on the sections between stop signs, and by character that street is more of a Residential Road.
That said, it might be worth asking public works what they think; the city transportation layer on VCGI marks it as primary, but I wonder how they treat it locally (particularly with snow removal priority). Either way the summit drink of choice should probably be a switchback :) -Bill North Ave. On Thursday, October 18, 2012, wrote: > Send Talk-us mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Talk-us digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: What is the status of the Toolbox? (Richard Fairhurst) > 2. Burlington, Vermont road classification (Andrew Guertin) > 3. Re: Burlington, Vermont road classification (Richard Weait) > 4. Re: Burlington, Vermont road classification (Andrew Guertin) > 5. Re: Burlington, Vermont road classification (Alan Millar) > 6. Re: Burlington, Vermont road classification (Dale Puch) > 7. Re: Burlington, Vermont road classification (Mike N) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 17:54:49 +0100 > From: Richard Fairhurst <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Talk-us] What is the status of the Toolbox? > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Charlotte Wolter wrote: > > What is the status of the Toolbox? When will it be fixed? It is > > difficult to do any editing without those tools. And, whose idea was > > that banner? Did they ask anyone before they implemented it? Did > > they test to make sure it didn't break anything? > > Goodness me, Charlotte, you are hard work sometimes. > > I'm assuming you're referring to the Potlatch 2 toolbox, though you > don't say. > > I am working on it Right Now and have been doing so for the last hour. I > would have fixed it yesterday were it not for your opinionising of the > trac ticket, which exasperated me sufficiently that I went and did > something else instead. Right now I am trying not to get similarly > exasperated... though clearly not with much success. :| > > Richard > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 16:48:39 -0400 > From: Andrew Guertin <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: [Talk-us] Burlington, Vermont road classification > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Hi, > > There are two active mappers in the Burlington, Vermont area, and we > disagree about how the roads should be classified, so we're looking for > more opinions. > > The crux of the problem is the answer to the question: Which is more > important, outside/official classifications, or physical characteristics? > > The tagging pages on the wiki don't really provide clarity on this > matter. For example, from [1], > > Almost all other U.S. Highways get highway=primary. A primary > > highway generally provides the best route (excluding motorways) > > connecting adjacent cities or communities > > > Even where U.S. Highways connect only smaller communities, they still > > merit highway=primary > > but > > > Primary highways generally lack stop signs; however, stop signs may > > control major intersections in rural areas with low traffic volumes > > and occur rarely elsewhere. > > > The most notable example of this is North Willard Street[2]. It is part > of US Route 7, but as can be seen with Bing Imagery, it is narrow, made > narrower by street parking on both sides, and is controlled by stop > signs. Similarly, Main Street is part of US Route 2, but has many > lights, and does not even satisfy the "near the highest speed generally > allowed on surface streets" note about secondary streets. > > Of note, there is in fact no path to get from US 7 south of Burlington > to US 7 north of Burlington without stopping at at least one stop sign, > except for the interstate. Should this imply that there just aren't any > major roads here? > > > We're especially interested in input from nearby states--the rest of New > England and northern New York, but of course anyone with an opinion > please chime in! > > Thanks, > --Andrew > > > > > > > [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging > [2] > http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.48388&lon=-73.20368&zoom=16&layers=M > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 17:07:12 -0400 > From: Richard Weait <[email protected]> > To: Andrew Guertin <[email protected]> > Cc: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Burlington, Vermont road classification > Message-ID: > <CAGwUD5uBVUm2gGJrdxQxM_dyeZ1xJnhGEoh3hzLLWOY= > [email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 4:48 PM, Andrew Guertin <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > There are two active mappers in the Burlington, Vermont area, and we > > disagree about how the roads should be classified, so we're looking for > > more opinions. > > If you are both local mappers, I suggest that you actually meet face > to face and share a beverage. As mappers, you both have much more in > common, in your concerns about this great project, then you have > differences on this small matter of tagging. > > Over a coffee, or other beverage of choice, talk and argue about > favourite editor, preferred survey methods, favourite rendering and > the benefits of each of your mapper baseball cards. Then settle this > little thing about the precise classification of a few local roads. > It doesn't matter how you settle it. Divide the town in odd-even > blocks, or take roads at the front back half of the alphabet, or take > turns being right from north to south in town. > > But settle it. You two should be enjoying the camaraderie of your > shared interest. Not fussing over trivialities. :-) > > Now, if only one of you is local, and the difference is purely matter > of opinion, then it's easy. Local mapper wins by on the ground rule.* > > * note: on the ground rule doesn't apply if I'm involved. Then "I > win" is the rule we go by. :-) > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 17:26:51 -0400 > From: Andrew Guertin <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Burlington, Vermont road classification > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > On 10/18/2012 05:07 PM, Richard Weait wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 4:48 PM, Andrew Guertin <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> There are two active mappers in the Burlington, Vermont area, and we > >> disagree about how the roads should be classified, so we're looking for > >> more opinions. > > > > If you are both local mappers, I suggest that you actually meet face > > to face and share a beverage. [...] > > While not a bad idea, I don't think that this is necessary or helpful > for this case. We're both impressed with each other's work, and (it > seems through text at least) perfectly willing to accept the other's > viewpoint, it's just that now we've realized that the docs are ambiguous > enough to make *both* viewpoints valid, and we'd like to choose the one > that most closely matches the rest of the map, especially in nearby areas. > > In other words, amicable disagreement, not a budding edit war. :) > > --Andrew > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 15:11:13 -0700 (PDT) > From: Alan Millar <[email protected]> > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Burlington, Vermont road classification > Message-ID: > <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > The crux of the problem is the answer to the question: Which is more > >important, outside/official classifications, or physical characteristics? > > > >The tagging pages on the wiki don't really provide clarity on this > >matter. > > > Although the wiki may not be very clear, this subject has been discussed > extensively on talk-us in the last year or two.? For the highway tag in > particular, the consensus I've seen is that it is definitely more about the > physical characteristics, "driveability", and perhaps perceived local > importance than any government classifications.? Yes, part of that is > subjective.?? Highway=motorway in particular is about physical > characteristics, regardless of being state, US, or Interstate highway.? > Primary/secondary/tertiary are more related to size and/or local > importance, which sometimes matches gov't classifications but often does > not.? (Related to this is the "ref" tag, used to designate official route > numbers.) > > - Alan > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/attachments/20121018/cbdc4273/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 18:11:48 -0400 > From: Dale Puch <[email protected]> > To: Andrew Guertin <[email protected]> > Cc: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Burlington, Vermont road classification > Message-ID: > < > ca+akea9v-otuy5gqhero27kljga3op+yc4w0httawdkbviz...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Bottom line is it is subjective. Be friendly, make a compromise and have > fun mapping. > > This is something that has shown up a few times that I recall. What I > remember from that is primary rely on "ground truth" but it can be adjusted > for map consistency and other extenuating factors. Unfortunately that > comes under the judgment of the mappers. > > Examples: I remember there are Interstates that are actually unpaved in > places, but tagged like all the rest of the interstates with perhaps > surface=unpaved ect. I think Alaska might be good examples of this but > haven't checked into it myself. Another is where the road conditions > change for a mile or two before reverting back. Especially if this happens > several times in a row it is usually desirable to keep one classification > instead of going back and forth. Relative conditions of the area also come > into play. It isn't always a question of the road at that specific point > meeting a set of requirements. > > Specifically for your example of US 7 and route 2. Both seem to connect > the center of burlington to other major roads and populations centers, not > just a local road. > > My answer that isn't an answer.... :p > Dale > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 4:48 PM, Andrew Guertin <[email protected] > >wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > There are two active mappers in the Burlington, Vermont area, and we > > disagree about how the roads should be classified, so we're looking for > > more opinions. > > > > The crux of the problem is the answer to the question: Which is more > > important, outside/official classifications, or physical characteristics? > > > > The tagging pages on the wiki don't really provide clarity on this > > matter. For example, from [1], > > > Almost all other U.S. Highways get highway=primary. A primary > > > highway generally provides the best route (excluding motorways) > > > connecting adjacent cities or communities > > > > > Even where U.S. Highways connect only smaller communities, they still > > > merit highway=primary > > > > but > > > > > Primary highways generally lack stop signs; however, stop signs may > > > control major intersections in rural areas with low traffic volumes > > > and occur rarely elsewhere. > > > > > > The most notable example of this is North Willard Street[2]. It is part > > of US Route 7, but as can be seen with Bing Imagery, it is narrow, made > > narrower by street parking on both sides, and is controlled by stop > > signs. Similarly, Main Street is part of US Route 2, but has many > > lights, and does not even satisfy the "near the highest speed generally > > allowed on surface streets" note about secondary streets. > > > > Of note, there is in fact no path to get from US 7 south of Burlington > > to US 7 north of Burlington without stopping at at least one stop sign, > > except for the interstate. Should this imply that there just aren't any > > major roads here? > > > > > > We're especially interested in input from nearby states--the rest of New > > England and northern New York, but of course anyone with an opinion > > please chime in! > > > > Thanks, > > --Andrew > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging > > [2] > > > http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.48388&lon=-73.20368&zoom=16&layers=M > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Talk-us mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > > > > > > -- > Dale Puch > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/attachments/20121018/9e17a0c8/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 18:17:16 -0400 > From: Mike N <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Burlington, Vermont road classification > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/18/2012 4:48 PM, Andrew Guertin wrote: > > The most notable example of this is North Willard Street[2]. It is part > > of US Route 7, but as can be seen with Bing Imagery, it is narrow, made > > narrower by street parking on both sides, and is controlled by stop > > signs. Similarly, Main Street is part of US Route 2, but has many > > lights, and does not even satisfy the "near the highest speed generally > > allowed on surface streets" note about secondary streets. > > An uninformed opinion - armchair only, and from a different part of > the country. > > An informal US OSM convention is that US highways are generally a > minimum of primary, no matter how small the highway is when going > through a town. I would say that this is especially valid when there > are no better driving routes nearby with lower legal classification. > It would be a gray area to me if an alternate state or county route had > better driving attributes (width, speed, traffic control devices etc). > > > > > ------------------------------ > > ____________________________________ -- ---------- William Morris Cartographer (802)-870-0880 [email protected] Twitter: @vtcraghead GeoSprocket LLC, Burlington VT www.geosprocket.com
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