Perhaps this <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Township_(Pennsylvania)> Wikipedia entry will help clarify things. Pennsylvania's townships are incorporated and exist on a level equivalent with boroughs (towns), cities, etc.
On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 5:07 PM, OSM Volunteer stevea < [email protected]> wrote: > On Jul 28, 2017, at 1:12 PM, Albert Pundt <[email protected]> wrote: > > Yes, rereading what I said, it does sound a lot like "This is the way it > is because of the way that it is." > > Firstly, "towns" ("town" in quotes here referring to anything that would > be generically called a town in everyday language) in Pennsylvania are > almost never incorporated as towns. Only one is: Bloomsburg. Every other > "town" that is incorporated is actually a borough (and I'm not aware of any > boroughs that aren't "towns"), a township (e.g. Annville Township in > Lebanon County, Mt. Lebanon Township in Allegheny County), or a small city. > Most townships, however, are just wide rural area and not really based > around any real settlement like my two examples are. > > These "towns" (i.e. boroughs, etc.) aren't part of the surrounding > township, much like Philadelphia isn't part of any of the surrounding > counties. It's a "county" all its own (actually a consolidated city-county, > so the analogy isn't perfect). They're all isolated from each other on the > same equivalent level directly below the county. For the purposes of admin > level, these various boundaries (township, borough, town, etc.) are > interchangeable. I don't know how things are set up on a sub-county level > in other states, but in Pennsylvania, this is all a single level of > boundary. > > On Jul 27, 2017, at 9:19 PM, Albert Pundt <[email protected]> wrote: > > No, I meant that townships, boroughs, cities, etc. should all be mapped > with admin level 8, which they seem to already be, but the information from > the wiki seemed to contradict that. > > > Thanks, Albert: we are both doing well at keeping our tone civil and > generating more light than heat. This can be hard work, but it's worth it! > > If I may paraphrase/simplify what you say above: > > 1) Towns are not incorporated (as opposed to cities, which are), unless > they really are incorporated small cities, but are colloquially called > "towns." > 2) If what is colloquially called a town IS incorporated, (as above), it > could be a small city, or it is possible that its true name is "borough." > 3) If what is colloquially called a town is NOT incorporated, its true > name is "township." > > When you say that "most townships are just wide rural area," I ask you to > note that admin_level rather exactly denotes NOT how rural or (un)populated > an area is, but rather how an administrative (governmental) organization > subordinates to a higher level (and has lower levels subordinate to it). > So while I do pay heed to "wide rural area" (because you make that > observation to me, and I wish to respect it), for purposes of assigning the > correct value to admin_level in OSM, I steer focus instead directly to the > proper question of "townships subordinate to what government?" In that > light, I do believe (though I continue to listen) that "township" (in > Pennsylvania, like all other states) is a set of subdivisions which > completely subdivide counties — directly. (Some might be "organized" with > a government, some might not). And as county is 6, township, because of > the DIRECT subordination, must be 7. This is consistent with all other 19 > states which have townships, though, again, if Pennsylvania's townships > truly aren't like this, I'm listening. I don't think you can make a case > that a township should be an 8 because of this "direct subordination > coupled with complete subdivision:" as county is 6, township must be 7, > not 8. > > It may seem that a "single level of boundary" is below county, but as > township is a legal division of a county, I don't think this is possible. > > Continuing my paraphrasing: > > 4) Boroughs are not part of surrounding townships. (I do note with you > that Philadelphia is a Consolidated City County, which OSM maps as two > coterminous boundary relations, one tagged admin_level=6 for the county, > another tagged admin_level=8 for the city. Yes, it does make Philadelphia > a confusing example, so we should erase it from the set of examples as a > confusing special-case). > > I consider https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania#Municipalities an > authoritative source. (It happens to agree with you about "Bloomsburg as > incorporated and the only town in the state.") It says (quoting the > "Pennsylvania Manual," which I assume actually governs these things) > "Pennsylvania is divided into 67 counties (which) are further subdivided > into municipalities that are either incorporated as cities, boroughs, or > townships." > > OK, (once again) the wiki has: > > Pennsylvania-4, County-6, City-8, > Pennsylvania-4, County-6, Borough/Boro-7, Town-8, > Pennsylvania-4, County-6, Township-7, Village-8/Hamlet-8. > > (I might edit "Town-8" to become "Town of Bloomsburg-8"). I believe what > Wikipedia/Pennsylvania Manual say is EXACTLY expressed by the current table > entry. (With the exception of Bloomsburg, and noting that Town-8 might > "disappear," or become Bloomsburg-8 as there is only that one town noted as > being in Pennsylvania). If you don't agree, please, I am listening. > > And, once again, I ask you to provide a similarly-structured "proposal" of > what you believe correct. Parsing out what you say here, I might posit: > > Pennsylvania-4, County-6, City-8/Township-8/Borough/ > Boro-8/Town-8/Village-8/Hamlet-8 > > But I don't really think that is or even can be correct, because of what I > believe to be true (and explain above) about townships. But you might. > Please include a similar structure you believe correct which might make its > way into OSM's United States/admin_level wiki as you reply to this. > > Thanks for the good dialog, > Steve >
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