Matthew Woehlke <[email protected]> writes: > On 31/08/2020 10.54, Greg Troxel wrote: >> Matthew Woehlke writes: >>> *You* may see it this way. The rest of the community does not. >> >> A declaration that every other member of the community disagrees is >> unreasonable. > > I'm not sure if this is directed at me or at Mike. If at me, I'll > point out that the fact we're having this conversation in the first > place is because someone strongly disagrees with residential driveways > being access=private "by default". Nor is it the first time I've > encountered that opinion. > > Honestly, my initial opinion on the matter was closer to Mike's, but > others told me I was wrong.
That's far more reasonable. I think it's obvious that there is
disagreement, and it's also obvious that this is very difficult.
What I objected to was not "that is your opinion; many others disagree"
but "that is your opinion but *no one else* sees it that way". If you
didn't really mean that, sorry for overreacting.
>> B) private shopping centers where the public is welcome, to shop.
>> (access=customers, mostly)
>>
>> C) private land where use is known acceptable (access=permissive)
>
> Even this is not clear. *My* understanding is that most businesses are
> closer to access=permissive, with access=customers referring more to
> places that are explicitly signed as "customers only". In most
> shopping centers, for example, it seems acceptable to go there just to
> walk around even with no intention of purchasing anything. (At least,
> I know that people do so...)
I agree this is tricky. I think the issue for unsigned shopping
centers and parking lots is:
it is basically always ok to go there to shop (looking at things with
the intention of maybe buying them)
it is usually/sometimes ok to visit without intent to buy ("mall
walking"). One can kind of view this as almost-customers as the mall
more or less permits/encourages this in the hopes that people will buy
things because they are there anyway.
It is sometimes ok to just park there to go someplace else nearby, or
leave a car for carpooling. And sometimes not.
To me, permissive means "the landowner is known not to object to the
extent that this can be treated as access=yes, except that ther is no
explicit grant of permission and defintely no legally-enshrined right."
That's a far broader notion that a parking lot at a business without a
customers-only sign. In that case, I think it's very much in the grey
area between prohibited and acceptable, Permissive is a declartion
that it is accceptable.
So I would lean to marking lots and way at businesses as
access=customers normally, and wanting a tag to say that there is an
actual sign limiting this.
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