Anyone who understands this topic better (and there are likely lots of you) please modify the subject!
On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 7:59 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. <[email protected]> wrote: > Please see my comments below. > > With apologies for wordiness ... > > Steve > > ----- Original Message ----- From: o1bigtenor via talk >>>> To: Alvin Starr ; GTALUG Talk >>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:22 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Programming languages (in comparison?) - -was >>>> Learn Swift for Apple/iOS. Learn ??? for Google/Android. >>>> >>>> On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 7:32 AM, Alvin Starr via talk <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> On 12/11/2017 12:29 AM, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote: >>>> >>>> On 2017-12-10 09:50 PM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote: >>>> >>>> <snip> >>>> >>>> FF57 is much cleaner than before, and is at least as fast as Chrome. You >>>> can quit FF, then have it restart with all your windows and tabs open. >>>> The clever part is, it'll only render that tab when it gets focus, so >>>> you could have hundreds of tabs open yet only a few loaded. So while I'm >>>> pretty sure it won't fit your needs of an entire Starbucks-load of pages >>>> in the one browser, it might get a little closer than FF <57. >>>> >>>> The trouble is that more and more services, systems and applications >>>> are using HTML as the interface. >>>> So you will find yourself with pages(tabs) open in your browser instead >>>> of applications open on your desktop. >>>> >>>> <snip> >>>> >>>> It sounds like I'm not the only one who has issues with browsers - - - >>>> thank you! >>>> >>>> Perhaps it is time that browsers were split into parts that do separate >>>> things, >>>> and things that could be managed by the USERS of those browsers rather >>>> than by the advertising (I'll use the word people although I would >>>> much rather >>>> not include them as such) people that think they do own my desktop. >>>> >>>> If the browser coders were actually listening to their users this would >>>> have >>>> already been happening! >>>> >>>> >>>> > It seems to me that there's a clue in the above proposal by Dee, quoted > here:: "Perhaps it is time that browsers were split into parts that do > separate things, and things that could be managed by the USERS of those > browsers rather than by the advertising". > > Dee complains when current browser technology is unable to cope gracefully > with his huge web page workload. > > I also suffer a browser resource contraint problem, but mine is due to my > outdated PC and Internet hookup. 1. use an extremely amcient operating > system (Win XP SP3 until I get moved to a new PC with debian Linux.), and > 2. the low bandwidth of my current Internet connection (approx. 46 Kbps > over landline telephone dial-up modem). > > My survivalist approach to using current browsers (FF and Comodo Dragon) > is to start the desired page (or maybe two or three pages, max.) loading, > and then I turn my attention to some other task, checking occasionally to > see if the page(s) has(ve) finished loading the vast quantities of: useless > eye-candy "rich" content, unwanted adware, great gobs of JavaScript crud, a > zillion videos I don't care to see, etc., etc. > > * * * > * * * > > It seems to me that the clue in Dee's pronouncement that I quoted, is to > take back control of the page load / display experience from the PROVIDER > of the page (often an arrogant rich titanic-scale oligarchic zillionaire > e.g amazon, google) , and give that control back to the CONSUMER of the > page. > > To my way of thinking, regaining browsing control and freedom, begins with > getting rid of the idea that the web browser is a monolithic opaque black > box that LOADS AND RENDERS A COMPLETE WEB PAGE AT A TIME. Currently, the > browser user is faced with an all-or-nothing choice. Either start a page > loading and wait until the browser has finished loading the entire page, or > don't try to view that page at all. > > I know that browsers do begin to render and display a page in parts, > before it has all been loaded and rendered internally by the browser. But > the designer of the browser controls the order of this progressive > rendering. And the order doesn't usually seem very helpful to me. > > * * * > * * * > > If we take Dee's idea: "it is time that browsers were split into parts > that do separate things, and things that could be managed by the USERS" as > a guiding principle, what can a browser developer do, to give more control > and power back to the user of the browser, and prevent the provider of th > page from dominating the page view esperience ?? > > WHAT I WOULD LIKE, IS TO BE ABLE TO CONTROL THE WEB BROWSER AT THE LEVEL > OF INDIVIDUAL ELEMENTS OF HTML ITSELF. I WOULD LIKE THE BROWSER START A > PAGE LOAD, BY PRESENTING TO ME, A COMPACT AND EASILY-NAVIGABLE > TREE-STRUCTURED LARGELY TEXTUAL REPRESENTATION OF THE WEB PAGE'S HTML > STRUCTURE. > > Then, I can scroll around to inspect all that nicely formatted and > coloured HTML textual rep, pick the parts of the page that I think would be > worthwhile actually loading and rendering, and set the browser loading only > my chosen few page parts. And I can ask for thumbprints of graphic > elemesnts that might seem interesting to me, And I can see still shots from > a huge video / movie, without loading/ playing the whole thing. And I can > hear sample audio clips. > > An even more advanced p'n'c browser, could synthesize "subversive" > versions of the original web page, guided by the browser user, The > "subversive": page would load the valuable nuggets, and leave behind > untouched all the useless intrusive BS that the tech titans like to think > is twisting our souls into consumerist puppets. > > A "subversive" p'n'c-generated web page, would be like the grumpy nasty > bitchy smelly customer with the bulging shopping buggy, who barges up to > the counter of the fast food outlet, and demands an X-large Diet Coke WITH > NO ICE. In other words, I will take the good stuff ONLY, and leave all the > BS to the next (and more conformist / compliant / wimpsterist) customer. > > * * * > * * * > > No doubt, the "dream" of a navigable tree-structured pick'n'choose (p'n'c) > list rep of an HTML page would be complicated to implement. > > And it would need to provide plernty of of hints and help so naive users > would be able to understand the HTML in simplistic terms. > > Some regexp-driven highlighting could help the user in their pick'n'choose > navigation, too. And the p'n'c browser would come pre-loaded with regexps > that isolate and exclude lots of recognizeable adware / snoopware crap and > junk. Google and Amazon, etc. will ABSOLUTELY LOATHE the p'n'c browser and > that will be a VERY GOOD THING :) > > Preach it brother. I do NOT like my online life being controlled as much as it is and that controlling appears to be headed for greater levels (see FCC removal of net neutrality). > * * * > * * * > > There are text-mode web browsers out there that actually have no GUI, they > work at a command line prompt. But I decided I couldn't use them because: > either they offer no Win XP-compatible version, or they are not up to date > with current HTML technology. > > But no doubt, most of the basic building blocks of a p'n'c browser are > already available in open source libraries. So, the task of building the > p'n'c browser would be more of an integration challenge than a greenfield > coding challenge. > > An interesting axample of the kind of technololgy that could be harnessed > in a p'n'c browser, crossed my eyes today: > === > Headless Chrome and the Puppeteer Library for Scraping and Testing the > Web Wednesday 29 November > http://www.i-programmer.info/news/87/11344.html > > With the advent of Single Page Applications, scraping pages for > information as well as running automated user interaction tests has become > much harder due to its highly dynamic nature. The solution? Headless Chrome > and the Puppeteer library. > ... > There's just one caveat. Since CDP only works with Chromium, Chrome and > other Blink-based browsers, so does Puppeteer. If you require more than > that, then sticking to Selenium and its WebDriver API still remains the > best option.. > === > > The Selenium WebDriver API might be a useful code base to be considered, > in the design of the p'n'c "subversive incremental load" browser ... > > My 2 cents worth. OK - - - so any suggestions out there on how to achieve this, at least IMO worthy goal? Dee
--- Talk Mailing List [email protected] https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
