To clarify two things re: the below response: 1. I most definitely DO NOT WANT TO LEGISLATE pay scales for programmers (not even sure where anyone got the idea that I did!). I feel we need to improve the SOCIAL STATUS of the field, so that market rates increase in and of themselves.
2. I cannot "quit my job and find another one", because I'm self employed. Me is counting on me to show up for work!! :) -- Kristina -------------------- > "I want to be a programmer. I just want to get paid what my skills > are WORTH as a programmer." > > As a hobby economist I have to respond to this one. :D > > It sounds to me like you'd like to legislate what you're worth. That > approach causes even more problems than it solves because it means a > lot of people who could be employed at lower rates will now be > unemployable, period. We are all worth what the market says we're > worth. If demand for talented developers is high, and supply is low > (as I've seen here in NYC) then you'll be paid handsomely. If demand > is low, and supply is high, then you'll be paid very little. > > If you believe you are worth more than you're currently getting - than > quit! Find another job that pays you what you're looking for. I know > from experience that there are 100k+ jobs out there for *good* PHP > developers (granted, it's my personal belief that it takes a little > more than just developer skills to hit that mark, but they *are* out > there). > > Dictating by government fiat what a "programmer" should make only > exacerbates the problem by leaving all those sub-par developers out in > the cold - completely unemployable in their industry. With that > prospect, average developers will never even have the chance to become > above-average. > > - Brian D. > > > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 8:48 PM, Kristina Anderson > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Tom, like a lot of the folks on this list, I'm a PHP programmer > > developing internet applications (coding forms, building MySQL > > databases, meeting with clients to determine requirements, etc. etc.). > > I've been doing this (in different languages and platforms) for 10 > > years and in PHP for the past 2 years (and love PHP!). I do this for a > > living because I like doing it, I'd probably be better off in > > retirement if I went to law school in the near future but I don't want > > to do this. I want to be a programmer. I just want to get paid what > > my skills are WORTH as a programmer. > > > > I'd love to charge my clients more. And I've recently gotten wise to > > opportunities where clients are able to offer me part ownership of > > startups in addition to hourly consulting rates. But...I do think that > > clients price things out and give bids to people who charge reasonable > > rates. There is a reason I get 90% of the projects I bid on. If I > > asked for $100 an hour, that would be great, but $100 an hour for 0 > > hours is, well....zero dollars. > > > > As a self employed person I'd love to hear any real, usable suggestions > > on how to increase income. My network is great and I have tons of > > projects going, business is growing every day as I meet new > > people...but the market does price at a certain level and if I start > > asking for more than people can afford, or more than others with my > > same skills are getting paid...I am not going to get hired. > > > > Your libertarian jawflap about how Social Security is "hurting us" (I > > disagree) and how the market is totally open for me to charge whatever > > I want are well...interesting theory and pretty typical politics for a > > certain segment of the IT industry...but. And saying I "look to > > others" to "solve my problems" is beyond a low blow, it's just too > > stupid a remark to even rebut. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Kristina > > > > > > > Hi Kristina, > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 4:59 PM, Kristina Anderson > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Tom -- > > > > > > > > The average corporate attorney makes $200K. The average attorney > > in > > > > business for themselves makes about the same. The average CPA, > > about > > > > > > > > 150K. The average doctor, electrician, etc. etc. etc...way more > > than > > > > we do. > > > > > > I have what I consider to be more than average experience with > > > electricians and they are nice folks, but hardly what I'd call on the > > > top of the "social status" scale and I would question what the average > > > salary was, but I doubt your numbers. > > > > > > Really, I doubt your "average". But it doesn't matter. You make what > > > you do because that is what you are willing to work for. Suppose the > > > floor fell out of IT tomorrow (literally), and the going rate for PHP > > > was $10 per hour. Would you still do it? Maybe for fun, but not as a > > > job. Why? Because you won't work for that little. You couldn't > > > survive. But you can survive on $80K (or whatever), so you do it. > > > When you decide that $80K isn't enough, you'll stop working for that > > > much. > > > > > > > > > > > The AVERAGE programmer makes, what, 80K if on salary? (I'm self > > > > employed and the hourly rate I can get from the clients is pretty > > > > constricted by the market, and I'm trying to bust open that 100K > > > > barrier but it won't be busted...I'm still on the losing end.) > > > > > > Look at your market. The "big" consulting firms charge much more and > > > pay their people much more. How come they are getting it and you are > > > not? That's the question you need to ask. You shouldn't be looking > > > for protection from the marketplace, you should be looking for ways to > > > excel in it. > > > > > > > > > > > Come on, work with us. > > > > > > > I am, really! I'm telling you to not look to others to solve your > > > problem - it won't help. Look at things Social Security and pension > > > plans. These systems put the burden on others - and they both have > > > severe flaws which are hurting us now. > > > > > > Look at what you can do to excel. How are your sales efforts > > > (speaking for myself in my experience as a consultant - I always > > > dreaded sales, but recently realized that it needs to be embraced, not > > > feared)? Professional networking? Who is your customer? Are their > > > pockets deep enough? Are you really taking advantage of your > > > expertise (are you doing graphics when you are really a DBA at heart)? > > > How can you get the work done faster? Can you invest in tools (store > > > bought or that you create) to help? Invest in services? People? Can > > > you reuse code? Are you tracking problems so that you don't make the > > > same mistake again? > > > > > > There are answers, but no one just pays more for your services "just > > because". > > > > > > Tom > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > > > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online > > > http://www.nyphpcon.com > > > > > > Show Your Participation in New York PHP > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online > > http://www.nyphpcon.com > > > > Show Your Participation in New York PHP > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php > > > > > > -- > realm3 web applications [realm3.com] > freelance consulting, application development > (917) 512-3594 > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online > http://www.nyphpcon.com > > Show Your Participation in New York PHP > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php > > \ _______________________________________________ New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online http://www.nyphpcon.com Show Your Participation in New York PHP http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
