And yet, I have never used the ribbon and haven't a clue about it. Not sure whether to feel ignorant or what?
On 1/19/2017 12:16 PM, Jim via Talk wrote: > Hi there GUYS! > > When the ribbin was first introduced I wanted nothing to do with it. > Now it is just a part of my everyday computing and I never give it a > second thought unless there is something there which I cannot find. My > first PC was an old xp then a 286 then a 486 all runnig various > versions of DOS. I really didn't wish to switch to windows, but my > buddy that was helping me with computers simply brought over a win 98 > system and I started using it. My first Windows screen reader was > VinVision and I really liked the ease of use with that software. Of > course when I went to XP I had to switch to Window Eyes which I have kep > since then. I went from 98 to XP to Win 7 then Win 10 and I found > it to be a rather easy trip. Maybe the facth that I have a lot of > technical friends that I can call on when I have a question most > certainly helps! Anyhow, just a bit of personal computing history. > Catch Ya All Later! de > > <KF8LT><Jim Wohlgamuth>. > > > On 19-Jan-17 11:37, Steve Nutt via Talk wrote: >> Hi Steve, >> >> I would disagree. I can often find things in word quicker than sighted >> people using that box. >> >> All the best >> >> Steve >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Talk >> [mailto:[email protected]] >> On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via Talk >> Sent: 15 January 2017 20:29 >> To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' <[email protected]> >> Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility? >> >> Steve, >> >> This is a useful tip, and I was not trying to assume anything. My point, >> though, was that we adopt strategies to be efficient that may depend >> upon a >> number of less obvious features of programs. Even your solution is >> not as >> quick as visually finding something on the ribbon, moving the mouse >> pointer >> to it and clicking. However, adding a feature that is used often to the >> custom toolbar is probably quicker than using a mouse, but this still >> involves some setup. We work to find ways of being efficient and by >> networking and such we succeed pretty well. I was not saying it >> couldn't be >> done. However, when software is updated, our methods of being >> efficient are >> often broken and need to be recreated, even if the software is >> technically >> accessible. I think this makes some of our resistance to change >> understandable, and I also think we have to think some about interface >> issues in the long run because change will become more and more a part of >> the evolution of technology. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Steve Nutt [mailto:[email protected]] >> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 12:48 PM >> To: [email protected]; 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' >> <[email protected]> >> Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility? >> >> Hi Steve, >> >> You're assuming though that everyone has to go the long way round to >> access >> ribbons and options within them. >> >> In Office for example, you don't need to access the ribbon when you can't >> find something. Just bring it up, then tab to the Tell Me What To Do >> edit >> box, and type in what you want. It is usually found, however deeply >> it is >> buried. The problem is training. Trainers don't teach these additional >> methods of getting there quickly. >> >> All the best >> >> Steve >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Talk >> [mailto:[email protected]] >> On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via Talk >> Sent: 13 January 2017 16:53 >> To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' <[email protected]> >> Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility? >> >> Peter and all, >> >> While I mostly agree with you, especially given that we have fairly good >> accessibility built into products that are much more complicated than >> those >> of fifteen or twenty years ago, I think we are often affected more by >> change >> than are sighted people. There needs to be some thought as to how >> this can >> be handled. While this can affect the ability of a new blind user to >> learn >> software, its greatest impact is on those who have used software for a >> long >> time and have become efficient in its use. >> >> For example, let's look at the Microsoft Ribbon. This was a major >> change to >> the way that options are displayed in Microsoft products. However, even >> though it can be frustrating for sighted users. It is usually possible to >> locate options by visually inspecting the ribbon and then moving the >> mouse >> directly to that item without serious delay. The act of moving the >> mouse to >> a given location and then clicking on it is a standard action that is not >> dependent on anything that is unique to the ribbon or Microsoft >> Office. The >> complaints I hear from sighted users are more along the line of how much >> space the ribbon takes, and there are even some workarounds for that. I >> don't read a lot of complaints about the ribbon any more in the general >> press although I suppose there are complaints out there yet. >> >> So why was the change to the ribbon difficult for us? The ribbon has >> pretty >> much always been accessible in a technical sense. In my opinion, it is >> because our greatest efficiency is achieved by our memory and our >> ability to >> repeat a sequence of actions reliably. When confronted with the ribbon >> rather than a typical menu system, our method of finding an item is to >> use >> the navigation that is built into Office to examine the ribbon >> sequentially. >> If that navigation is sluggish, it will slow our ability even beyond >> what we >> are already experiencing because of needing to look sequentially. >> Therefore, even when accessibility is implemented, we depend upon more >> levels of the software, operating system and specific software, to get >> the >> information we need. In addition, we are needing to access information >> sequentially rather than being able to take the shortest path to the >> desired >> item as can be done visually with the mouse. >> >> We do get around all this in time by learning keyboard shortcuts and >> accellerator keys. As a rule, though, keyboard shortcuts and >> accellerators >> are assigned to some degree by their locations in menus and ribbons. In >> menus, there were generally two keystrokes involved, the first to get >> to the >> pulldown and the second to choose the specific item. The order of the >> items >> in a menu affect the keystrokes assigned. Typing a letter will get >> one to >> the first item starting with that letter. If there is another item >> starting >> with the same letter, the next letter of the item not already assigned is >> used. In the end, we generally figure out how to do this efficiently, >> and >> we get these keystrokes reinforced by the menu system itself. >> >> So what about the ribbon. Pretty much all of the above approaches are >> implemented in the ribbon. In addition, there are keys to jump >> through the >> groups as well. However, many, if not most, of the accellerator key >> sequences have changed there. Rather than needing to look for a >> command or >> function for an extra second or two, we can spend a great deal of time >> working through the ribbon sequentially or trying keystrokes we think >> might >> work. The effect of the change on us is far greater than it is on people >> using these same products with vision even though accessibility exists >> technically. >> >> I've used the ribbon as an example because it is probably one of the more >> extreme examples and it is one we have often faced. However, this >> difference in how we access software is very true in other areas. For >> example, because of how accellerator keys are assigned, changing the >> order >> that items appear in a pulldown menu can change which keys access >> them. A >> change in the order may hardly be noticed by someone clicking with a >> mouse >> but needing to use different keystrokes to get there can have a much >> greater >> impact on us. It requires that we relearn a pattern while it requires >> only >> a minor adjustment for the person using a mouse. Moving an item out of a >> menu into a toolbar might make it more quickly identifiable visually >> while >> it might make it harder for us to find in some cases, especially if >> the item >> is moved to a deeper level in a menu because it is now on a toolbar. >> There >> are other examples as well but I've already gone on too long. >> >> The point is that although I agree with Peter that we are probably better >> off then we think regarding accessibility, there are things about >> efficient >> interfaces that are not really well understood. This is getting worse as >> software becomes more complex and developers struggle to make their >> applications easier to use visually. While there are basics that we can >> insist be implemented, it is really not easy to make all of the above >> clear >> to a developer. Even if we can, it's not always that simple to know >> what to >> do. For example, if we somehow kept the same accellerator keys active on >> the ribbon, it would make life easier for those who have used a >> product for >> a long time, but the keystrokes would make no sense to a new user >> trying to >> learn them. While we might be able to get large companies like >> Microsoft to >> understand this better, the ability to get all developers to think about >> this is very unlikely. While I am very encouraged by the innovations >> that >> have allowed us to use touch screens, efficiency is not really a >> consideration there. Again, we may well remember where something is on a >> touch screen and get good at activating it efficiently, but if the >> developer >> changes the screen, we are going to need to do a lot of searching to find >> out to where it was moved while the new location will be available >> quickly >> using vision. >> >> I am saying all of this for two reasons. First change means more >> adjusting >> for us, so as change comes faster and faster, it adds more overhead to >> our >> ability to access software efficiently. It is not all that surprising >> that >> we are going to whine some about change. Second, at some level, we are >> going to have to think about how screen readers can fill the gap >> between how >> we access software and how one accesses it visually. This is especially >> important for those of us using software in employment settings. It >> means >> that some of our feelings of frustration when things change are >> justified, >> but it also means that we have to keep looking for answers and the >> answers >> may not always be with those developing software. It is going to take >> people much smarter than me to find some of these answers. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Talk >> [mailto:[email protected]] On >> Behalf Of Peter Duran via Talk >> Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 2:13 AM >> To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' <[email protected]> >> Subject: Going Backward in Accessibility? >> >> Hello All, >> >> There are different issues in play when discussing accessibility. >> >> Computer technology has changed rapidly and relentlessly since the first >> computer made its appearance. See the wonderful movie "Hidden Figures" >> currently in theaters about 3 African American women mathematicians who >> worked for NASA in the late fifties and beyond. They had to deal with >> racism, sexism, and rapid change in their jobs. >> Us blind folks, until Section 508 of the Accessibility law came into >> effect, >> had alike discrimination in the workplace. However, today,the major >> developers of software - Apple and Microsoft - build into their >> development >> efforts accessibility - perhaps not as fast as we would wish. >> >> The marketplace drives Web and Internet developments, and that >> development >> occurs rapidly and in unexpected ways. All of that makes it hard for >> developers of access technology to keep up. >> >> I have been in the access biz for forty years and my customers have >> feared >> being left behind with every marketplace innovation. The reality is, >> however, since Bill Gates of Microsoft made the commitment to >> accessibility, >> things have been really good for us. >> >> I have no doubt that progress will continue, yes in fits and starts, >> nevertheless forward. >> >> The core issue for us is whether third-party developers will disappear >> and >> access left to mainstream software manufacturers. Apple does a good job >> with its VoiceOver software, and tech support of disabled users is solid! >> >> iPhone technology has become the main communication tool for blind >> students >> in college and in professional job environments. It is dynosaurs like us >> old dudes that resist change. It took me lots of effort to get my >> wife to >> switch from a flip phone to an iPhone; she still refuses to learn more >> than >> she needs, but she now send text messages, pictures, cute visual effects, >> and so on. Sad to say, the older we get, the harder its is to >> change. (I >> have not as yet switched to Windows 10. It is good to wait until the >> bugs >> are under control, until access catches up, and until the need >> arises.) I >> did buy a Windows 10 HP laptop from QVC during their Christmas bash, and >> will get to it this Spring when I have time to write a tutorial for >> Windows >> 10. >> >> Microsoft, with the change of leadership a couple of years ago, rethought >> its overall corporate structure and switched to a "vertical model" >> where all >> development groups are required to incorporate alike software into core >> products to ensure uniformity of functionality. Last year, Microsoft >> created a new access group withsignificant powers to oversee >> accessibility >> issues. It is my personal guess that Narrator will become A significant >> screen reader within Windows 10 and will rival the accessibility >> features of >> VoiceOver of Apple and of Window-Eyes and JAWS. >> >> Let us all hope for the best access and let our dinosaur tendencies >> behind. >> >> Peter Duran >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the >> author >> and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >> >> For membership options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/steve.jacobson >> >> %40visi.com. >> For subscription options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> List archives can be found at >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the >> author >> and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >> >> For membership options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/steve%40compro >> >> om.co.uk. >> For subscription options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> List archives can be found at >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the >> author >> and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >> >> For membership options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/steve%40compro >> >> om.co.uk. >> For subscription options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> List archives can be found at >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the >> author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >> >> For membership options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/wohlggie%40gmail.com. >> >> For subscription options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> List archives can be found at >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > > _______________________________________________ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the > author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/nicksarames%40msn.com. > > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > . > _______________________________________________ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. 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