And Zoomtext will be getting yearly updates, and so on like JAWS does.
-----Original Message-----
From: Talk [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
Russ Kiehne via Talk
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 6:50 AM
To: Window-Eyes Discussion List
Cc: Russ Kiehne
Subject: Re: contacting Doug.
You are correct, the article was posted for historical purposes.
It's interesting to see how many screen readers we had back then.
Jaws wonthe the battle and now is king of the hill.
-----Original Message-----
From: Debby Franson via Talk
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 12:50 PM
To: Window-Eyes Discussion List
Cc: Debby Franson
Subject: Re: contacting Doug.
Hi Loy!
No, I agree that the article would not be fair today, but I think this
article was posted for historical purposes, not anything about the
current day.
Debby
At 10:25 AM 8/19/2017, Loy via Talk wrote
This would not be a air comparison now, Window Eyes progressed much faster
than JAWS since 1996. ----- Original Message ----- From: Russ Kiehne
via Talk To: Window-Eyes Discussion List Cc: Russ Kiehne Sent:
Saturday, August 19, 2017 9:42 AM Subject: Re: contacting Doug. Check
this out from times past! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:49:26 EDT From:
Jamal Mazrui <[email protected]> Subject: CSUN "Dueling
Windows"
Sensory Access Foundation has published a "Dueling Windows" report in
the
Spring 1996 issue of Access Review. It summarizes a competition among
Windows screen readers that was held at the 1996 CSUN conference in
March. I am prefacing the article with some tabulations I did with its
data. Since the article does not quantify the performance of each
screen reader according to its criteria, I did such an analysis for the
interest of readers. I assigned a value of 2 for accomplishing a task,
1
for accomplishing it with difficulty, and 0 for failing it. If anyone
observes an error in my arithmetic, please let me know. Artic's
WinVision accomplished: 7 accomplished with difficulty: 2 failed: 6
total points: 16 average: 1.06 Berkeley's OutSpoken for Windows
accomplished: 9 accomplished with difficulty: 5 failed: 1 total
points: 23 average: 1.53 GW Micro's Window-Eyes accomplished: 5
accomplished with difficulty: 1 failed: 9 total points: 11 average:
.73 Henter-Joyce's JAWS for Windows accomplished: 13 accomplished
with difficulty: 1 failed: 1 total points: 27 average: 1.8 IBM's
Screen Reader/2 accomplished: 13 accomplished with difficulty: 1
failed: 1 total points: 27 average: 1.8 Syntha-Voice's Window Bridge
accomplished: 5 accomplished with difficulty: 4 failed: 6 total
points: 14 average: .93 TeleSensory's Screen Power for Windows
accomplished: 5 accomplished with difficulty: 7 failed: 3 total
points: 17 average: 1.13 Based solely on this analysis, JAWS for
Windows and Screen Reader/2 were tied for top. They were followed by
OutSpoken for Windows, Screen Power for Windows, WinVision, Window
Bridge
and Window-Eyes. Let me remind readers that Windows access products are
rapidly developing so that new versions might lead to significantly
different results today. In fact, some developers have already made
enhancements to address problems encountered at this
competition. ---------- Dueling Windows: An Overview by
Kenneth Frasse (re-printed with permission of Sensory Access
Foundation from Access Review, Vol. I, No. 1, Spring 1996)
Abstract In March, at the CSUN International Conference on Technology
and
Persons with Disabilities held in Los Angeles, California, Mark Nelson
of
the Foundation for Blind Children hosted a pre-conference seminar called
"Dueling Windows". This seminar attempted to contrast and compare
graphical user interface (GUI) screen review software in applications
for
Windows. The format of the seminar was to pose identical tasks to each
of the vendors in alternating order and have the vendors demonstrate the
ability of their products to perform the specified tasks. Since SAF
does
not sell, distribute, or endorse any single GUI screen reader, we
attempted to generate an objective review of the GUI screen readers
demonstrated. Editor Similar to the 1995 Closing the Gap
presentation of Dueling Windows, Mark Nelson of the Arizona-based
Foundation for Blind Children coordinated another Dueling Windows at the
March CSUN conference in Los Angeles. The Los Angeles seminar differed
in several respects from the first seminar at Closing the Gap, not the
least of which was that the seminar was six hours long. It was similar
to the Closing the Gap seminar in that it was composed of questions and
tasks that each of the vendors had to answer or perform. Notably, Greg
Meise of the Kansas-based Missing Link Technologies, Kerry Malone-Cook
of
the Southern Oregon Goodwill, and Jay Stiteley of The New Jersey-based
Seeing Eye, Inc. joined Mr. Nelson as the three panelists who would
present the questions of the day; these panelists also formed the
impetus
for creating Dueling Windows. I wish to take a moment to explain the
presentation and approach of this article so that the reader may be as
clear on the issues presented as possible. I will present Dueling
Windows in five sections: 1) Who was there: Which GUI software were
represented at the seminar and what are some of the fundamental
equipment
differences between them that the seminar results might not make obvious
for the reader; 2) Technical Set-up: What was the technical set-up
for the seminar; 3) Environment: What are the advantages and
disadvantages of the Dueling Windows environment; 4) Results: The
Dueling Windows results; 5) Summary and commentary. Who was there
Seven GUI screen reader developers were represented at the seminar.
These
included: 1) Artic Technologies's WinVision 2 v2.16; 2) Berkeley
Access's outSPOKEN for Windows v1.2 (vb26 public beta) 3) GW Micro's
Window-Eyes v1.03; 4) Henter-Joyce's JAWS for Windows (JFW) v1.2; 5)
IBM's Screen Reader/2 (SR/2) v2.0; 6) Syntha-Voice's SLIMWARE Window
Bridge v2.21; 7) TeleSensory's ScreenPower for Windows (SPW) v1.47B.
Nearly all GUI screen readers were represented by their respective
owners/developers/staff except for WinVision which was represented by
one
of their California authorized dealers, Paul Hendrikson. Window Bridge
also opted to have a student user demonstrate the latter portion of the
seminar in lieu of Niel Cooper who demonstrated the first segment. The
other participants were Josh Miele of Berkeley Access, Mike Lawler of GW
Micro, Ted Henter and Glen Gordon of Henter-Joyce, Inc., Guido Corona of
IBM, and Scott Duncan of TeleSensory, Inc. Several of the GUI screen
readers claim to possess electronic braille display support, but
TeleSensory was the only vendor who brought and used their own
PowerBraille 40-cell display; unfortunately, the airlines misplaced
TeleSensory's PB-40, and Mr. Duncan was unable to demonstrate the
braille
display ability until later in the afternoon. (TeleSensory claims that
one of the strengths of ScreenPower for Windows is its braille display
support. SAF will soon be testing and comparing braille display
support,
and the results will be published in ACCESS REVIEW. Technical Set-up
The seminar was performed on 7 identical Pentium computers with 16
megabytes of RAM; these machines were generously donated by IBM. Each of
the computers had a 17-inch monitor that was turned 180 degrees away
from
the participant and facing the audience so that the audience could
review
where the participant was in their manipulations. Additionally, a large
overhead screen displayed to the audience the monitor of the individual
vendor who was performing tasks; vendors were not allowed to visually
review the monitor. All audible feed from the computers was sent to
DECtalk voice synthesizers which were in turn fed into the main PA of
the
room. Each vendor installed their own GUI screen reader and peripherals
associated with their software. Aside from TeleSensory's eventual use
of
the PB-40, IBM's Screen Reader/2 used an external keypad from which all
operations were performed. Mr. Corona did have one piece of software
that differed from the other vendors; IBM uses their own Web Explorer
for
Internet access while the other GUI screen readers use Netscape for
their
access to the Internet. Since real-time access to the Internet posed a
tactical impasse, the vendors had to download prepared pages from their
own hard drives; it was assumed that this would mostly resemble
real-time
operation on the Internet. Lastly, the seminar was split into two
three-hour sessions with an emphasis on spread sheets in the morning,
and
an emphasis on Netscape and word processing in the afternoon. The
applications used included Microsoft Access, Microsoft Excel, Netscape
(Web Explorer for IBM), and Microsoft Word. Environment It is
important to understand the context and limitations of the Dueling
Windows environment with respect to GUI screen readers. In so doing,
the
reader can better establish where more inquiry may be appropriate, as
well as where, and when, GUI screen readers can directly address the
user's needs. Generally speaking, the fifteen questions from the Dueling
Windows panel posed common, direct tasks for the vendors to perform.
The
reader can determine the general state of GUI affairs through the entire
seminar, but there are several cases in which the reader cannot
determine
the cause of a certain result. In several cases, vendors' systems
crashed, and they were obligated to re-boot their systems; in some
cases,
it was not possible to determine exactly what the cause of the crash
was.
It is important to acknowledge that there are numerous ways to program
in
Windows for a desired result, and, consequently, there are inherent
problems with the way Windows applications have been programmed. Since
it is SAF's belief that most beginner users do not know how to configure
the speech parameters or profiles for various Windows environments, it
was also difficult to determine whether a GUI screen reader could not
access something on the screen, or whether this problem could have been
solved by altering the speech configuration; in short, there are minor
and major obstacles, and Dueling Windows could not afford the vendors
the
time to really address this other than to allow them to verbally state
whether they could, or could not, perform a task. Naturally, the ease
with which a user can access their application or configure their speech
software is important, even critical, but this detail could not be
discussed because of time constraints as well. Though the general
approach and philosophy of each vendor became increasingly apparent as
the seminar passed, the more subtle distinctions of each vendor's
approach could not be related through the Dueling Windows context. None
of this is to say that the seminar should, or could, have been planned
differently. It is simply necessary to understand that any competitive
context for any product is sometimes misleading in only reviewing the
statistical results. The seminar was well-planned, well-organized, and
extremely thoughtful and reasonable in its approach and inquiry. Results
The following results are displayed in a similar fashion as did the
Dueling Windows panel. There were three categories of scoring; the
vendor either achieved the task, achieved the task with difficulty, or
failed to perform the task. For the purpose of our review of the seven
vendors, "achieved task" means that the vendor was able to achieve the
task with good efficacy and few keystrokes; "achieved task with
difficulty" means that the vendor had to try repeatedly, the task
required an inordinate number of keystrokes or searching, or multiple
modes or cursors were required to achieve a task that was simpler in
design than performing it; "failed task" simply means that the task was
not accomplished. The panel rotated through the vendors so that no
single
vendor could always have the benefit of his predecessor's insight; the
results here shall be by vendor in alphabetical order and will include
additional comment for clarification. A comment "none" can mean just
that, or it can mean that there was insufficient data to determine the
cause of the outcome. It should be noted that this article is not to
promote any single vendor, so it will concentrate its comments on GUI
screen reader's ability rather than their failure. (More comment on the
evolution of GUI screen readers will be presented in the Summary section
of this article.) Each of the fifteen questions shall be presented, and
followed with each vendor's performance. Note: The first 4 questions
regard Microsoft Access, MS's database. 1. Find and launch Microsoft
Access. WinVision: achieved task Comments: none outSPOKEN:
achieved task Comments: none Window-Eyes: achieved task Comments:
none JFW: achieved task Comments: none Screen Reader/2: achieved
task Comments: none Window Bridge: achieved task Comments: none
SPW: achieved task Comments: none 2. Using the file menu and
dialog
box, open the file called dwdb from the \dwfiles directory. WinVision:
achieved task Comments: none outSPOKEN: achieved task Comments:
none Window-Eyes: achieved task Comments: none JFW: achieved task
Comments: none SR/2: achieved task Comments: none Window Bridge:
achieved task Comments: none SPW: achieved task Comments: none
3. Open the employee table in view, arrow down and tab into the
employee data, and demonstrate how to read the field data and field
title. WinVision: failed task Comments: Could not read either cell
contents or header. outSPOKEN: achieved task with difficulty
Comments:
Had to invoke mouse cursor to read header. Window-Eyes: failed task
Comments: Could not read either cell contents or header; very verbose.
JFW: achieved task with difficulty Comments: Read cell contents but
had
to enter mouse cursor mode and search to read header. SR/2:
achieved
task Comments: Screen Reader/2 was the only program that could read the
field and header without entering into an additional mode or review
mode,
or having to press numerous keystrokes just to confirm the header.
Window Bridge: achieved task with difficulty Comments: Had to re-boot.
SPW: failed task Comments: none 4. Close the employee table window
(CTRL+F4), and from the View menu select Query (Alt+V, Q). Now select
the DWquery, and in two separate dialog boxes you will be prompted to
enter data . In the first you will be asked to enter a position. In
the
second you will be asked to enter a country. Demonstrate your program's
ability to find and read the appropriate prompts. (Editor's note: the
prompt here is located on the line above the entry field.) WinVision:
failed task Comments: Could not re-read edit fields. outSPOKEN:
achieved task with difficulty Comments: Could read dialogue box, but
did
not speak automatically and needed to enter mouse cursor mode to
re-read the field. Window-Eyes: failed task Comments: Very verbose;
could not re-read edit field. JFW: achieved task Comments: none
SR/2: achieved task with difficulty Comments: Read fields, but did not
speak automatically. Window Bridge: failed task Comments: none
SPW:
failed task Comments: none Note: The following questions refer to
operations in Excel, Microsoft's spread sheet. 5. Load MS-Excel and,
from the file menu, select "open". Using the dialog box, open a file
called invoice.xls from the \dwfile directory. (Note: MS-Excel is an
example of how Microsoft does not necessarily maintain its programming
conventions; this presents an obstacle for GUI speech developers.)
WinVision: achieved task Comments: none outSPOKEN: failed task
Comments: Had to re-boot and could not open file. Window-Eyes: n/a
Comments: GW Micro declined to demonstrate their program in MS-Excel at
this time, but would be working on access to it in the future. JFW:
achieved task Comments: none SR/2: achieved task Comments: none
Window Bridge: failed task Comments: none SPW: achieved task with
difficulty Comments: Had to re-boot. 6. Have the speech announce
the
cell pointer location. WinVision: achieved task with difficulty
Comments: Could not easily speak coordinates. outSPOKEN: achieved task
with difficulty Comments: Could not easily speak coordinates; used
review mode. Window-Eyes: n/a Comments: none JFW: achieved task
Comments: Used INS-C macro. SR/2: achieved task Comments: none
Window Bridge: failed task Comments: Could not read because of font
type. SPW: achieved task Comments: none 7. Read the text in
cells
A1 to A6. WinVision: failed task Comments: none outSPOKEN:
achieved task Comments: none Window-Eyes: n/a Comments: none
JFW: achieved task Comments: none SR/2: achieved task Comments:
none Window Bridge: failed task Comments: none SPW: achieved task
Comments: none 8. Go to cell F22. Enter the 4-digit number provided
by the panel; this number is too big for the cell. How does your
program
let you know this? WinVision: failed task Comments: Could not read
cell contents or overflow. outSPOKEN: achieved task Comments: Had to
read line instead of cell contents and overflow. Window-Eyes: n/a
Comments: none JFW: achieved task Comments: none SR/2: achieved
task Comments: none Window Bridge: failed task Comments: Could
not
read overflow. SPW: achieved task with difficulty Comments: none
Note: The next section regards the World Wide Web (WWW) browser,
Netscape; IBM used their own WWW access, Web Explorer. 9. Load the web
browser; Get the URL of the current sample web site. WinVision:
achieved task Comments: none outSPOKEN: achieved task Comments:
none Window-Eyes: achieved task Comments: none JFW: achieved task
Comments: none SR/2: achieved task Comments: none Window Bridge:
achieved task Comments: none SPW: achieved task Comments: none
10. When on-line and going to a new location, many times the new web
page takes some time to load. How do you determine when the entire page
has been received or downloaded? WinVision: achieved task Comments:
none outSPOKEN: achieved task Comments: none Window-Eyes:
achieved
task Comments: none JFW: achieved task Comments: none SR/2:
achieved task Comments: SR/2 has a sound feature that indicates if a
download is still in progress. Window Bridge: achieved task
Comments: none SPW: achieved task with difficulty Comments: none
11. As you move up and down through the web page, how do you determine
when you are at the top or bottom? Demonstrate this by finding the
bottom of the current page. WinVision: achieved task Comments: none
outSPOKEN: achieved task Comments: none Window-Eyes: achieved task
Comments: none JFW: achieved task Comments: none SR/2: achieved
task Comments: none Window Bridge: achieved task with difficulty
Comments: none SPW: achieved task with difficulty Comments: none
12. Find and move to the link on the screen. Now, click the "Let the
Internet duel begin" link. WinVision: achieved task Comments: none
outSPOKEN: achieved task Comments: none Window-Eyes: failed task
Comments: Found link but could not select as the cursor was not on the
link. JFW: achieved task Comments: none SR/2: achieved task
Comments: none Window Bridge: achieved task with difficulty
Comments:
none SPW: achieved task with difficulty Comments: Had trouble
distinguishing between hypertext link and standard text. 13. If a
link
is not visible on the current page, can your program find it on other
pages without going to those pages? Note: This question was deemed
invalid since sighted users would not be using Windows in this fashion.
Though not discussed at the seminar, a link Goto/locator might give
blind
users an advantage over their sighted colleagues. 14. Perform the
following seven-step process to get to a specific page: Click on the
netsuite products link; Page down twice; Click on the WebWhacker link;
Page down three times; Click on the Windows 3.1 v1.0 link; Page down
once; Click on the download link. You are now at a form. Please fill
in the last name and first name fields. WinVision: failed task
Comments: Could not find entry field. outSPOKEN: achieved task
Comments: none Window-Eyes: failed task Comments: Could not get
mouse pointer in edit box for data input. JFW: achieved task
Comments:
none SR/2: achieved task Comments: none Window Bridge: achieved
task Comments: none SPW: failed task Comments: Could not get
mouse
pointer in edit box for data input. 15. When online in a newspaper with
multiple columns, read a single column. WinVision: failed task
Comments: Could not establish single-column window to read. outSPOKEN:
achieved task with difficulty Comments: Was the only program that could
read newspaper columns, but with many keystrokes and some column
defining. Window-Eyes: failed task Comments: Could not establish
single-column window to read. JFW: failed task Comments: Could not
establish single-column window to read. SR/2: failed task Comments:
Could not establish single-column window to read. Window Bridge: failed
task Comments: Could not establish single-column window to read. SPW:
achieved task with difficulty Comments: Could not establish
single-column with speech, but could use braille display to
differentiate between columns. 16. Start MS-Word. From the file menu
open a file called dw.doc from the \dwfiles directory. From the tool
menu, select spellcheck. Using the tab key, now demonstrate your
program's ability to read the items in this dialog box. WinVision:
achieved task with difficulty Comments: Had to tab to short keys to
read
them; did not spell misspelled or optional words. outSPOKEN:
achieved task with difficulty Comments: Had to tab to short keys to
read
them; did not spell misspelled or optional words. Window-Eyes:
achieved task with difficulty Comments: Had to tab to short keys to
read
them; did not spell misspelled or optional words. JFW: achieved
task
Comments: none SR/2: achieved task Comments: none Window Bridge:
achieved task with difficulty Comments: Had to tab to short keys to
read
them; did not spell misspelled or optional words. SPW: achieved
task
with difficulty Comments: Had to tab to short keys to read them; did
not
spell misspelled or optional words. Summary and Commentary We
gleaned a few conclusions from Dueling Windows. It showed that we have
come a long way in GUI screen reader development since only a few, short
years ago when access to GUI appeared a dismal prospect. Dueling
Windows
further showed, however, that we have a long way to go in GUI screen
reader development. Few tasks, by any vendor, could be easily performed
with a single keystroke or short series of keystrokes; though certain
individual tasks could be performed relatively easily, access to an
entire process or series of tasks seemed burdensome and never completely
straight-forward. The seminar brought to light some important points to
consider regarding this. DOS was not accessible in its early state,
and
is often still inaccessible. Access to Windows, however, is occurring
at
an earlier stage in Windows development than did access in DOS's
development. Also, if certain programming conventions are upheld in
Windows, Windows may become much more predictable and workable than DOS
did; remember that GUI access is in its fledgling state and will become
much more sophisticated. One key issue for access to Windows is the
need, or lack thereof, to build one's own speech configurations or
profiles. If an access program works well with a strict, conventional
set-up of an application program, but fails to easily be configured for
a
slight variation of the original application program, this is obviously
not desirable. Also, key issues for GUI screen reader users are the
ability to re-read text and fields that have been spoken once as a
window
opens, and the ability to spell words in any area of the screen where
they are only spoken in context. Since Windows is somewhat predictable
and generally constant in its presentation, and, since certain Windows
application programs have become more conventional than others, it is
not
unreasonable to assume that the differences between access programs will
become more philosophy-based, rather than task-based. The conventions
of
Windows, or domination of Microsoft, essentially requires all GUI screen
readers to eventually have full and complete access to these programs.
The distinctions are likely to appear in the interface where more or
less
transparency is desired, etc. Lastly, Dueling Windows may be providing a
marketing aspect that could benefit the users. Though certainly not
all-encompassing, it injects a competitiveness into the screen reader
market that might not otherwise be there. Much product development for
the blind has suffered as a result of a lack of competition, so the user
may benefit from this current surge in GUI access competitiveness. The
only danger with this added competitiveness is if the small pool of
developers and vendors in this market lose respect for another's
product,
or cease to work with other developers. Judging from the March CSUN
event, this is certainly not the case yet, and SAF looks forward to the
next Dueling Windows. Post Scriptum: SAF welcomes any or all of the
GUI
screen reader vendors to respond to any misrepresentations or errors
this
article may infer regarding their product. -----Original Message-----
From: Ian Westerland via Talk Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 3:04 PM
To:
Sky Mundell via Talk Cc: Ian Westerland Subject: Re: contacting Doug.
Hello everyone. I am still using Window-Eyes and the various Android
apps in my smart phone but I think the 4 B's might apply here to FS,
Jaws
and screen reading access generally. What are the 4 B's? Big, Bigger,
Biggest, Bust. In the longr term, some good will come of it all
depending
on who thinks about what is behind the need for top quality Screen
reading access. There are some good things around. Just some thoughts
I've had as I have observed and participated in some of this
Accessibility change and development. Ian Westerland On 8/19/2017 7:24
AM, Sky Mundell via Talk wrote: > FS is getting desperate to hang onto
their market at any cost. With JAWS > having a monopoly in the paid
market now, the price of JAWS might go up. > > -----Original
Message----- > From: Talk [mailto:[email protected]]
On
Behalf Of Reeva > Webb via Talk > Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017
11:42
AM > To: Window-Eyes Discussion List > Cc: Reeva Webb > Subject: RE:
contacting Doug. > > You can tell fs starting to get desperate. Fs 10
or 15 years ago wouldn't > have given you discounts on anything. For
most
the out of the box > accessibility, android, apple etc. will work for
what they need to do. I'm > curious though, is anyone from gw or pre
merger ai2 still around.? > Everyone i can think of seems to be gone.
>
"the world has been against you from day one, tomorrow's never
promised night has just begun, so sing with me we're all fucked"
Walls
Of Jericho
> Reeva > > On Aug 17, 2017 1:00 PM, "Joseph Norton via Talk" <
>
[email protected]> wrote: > >> Ah, I think I see where
you’re going with this. >> >> Are you saying things may be getting
to
a point where the cost of >> maintaining JAWS is greater than anyone
wants to pay in terms of >> keeping the company going? >> >> I know
it’s not because of Narrator being a superior product on the >>
Windows
side. It is improving, but, not enough for many of us to get >> rid of
JAWS. >> >> >> >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >> From:
Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via Talk >> Sent: Wednesday,
August 16, 2017 9:02 PM >> To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List'; 'Dennis
Long' >> Subject: RE: contacting Doug. >> >> Well, Michael, I once
opined that the war Freedom Scientific could not >> win in the courts,
was well fought and won outside; with its cohorts >> and coterie of
friends, it succeeded in drowning the boat! >> >> The merger with AI
Square came to me as a surprise; I didn't want to >> see it happen, but
what voice do I have? >> >> I long for the day when all these adaptive
equipment >> developers/manufacturers can TRADE THEIR STOCKS publicly;
may be, just >> may be, they'll have better stability! Now, we keep our
eyes on the >> sparrow, Jaws may be taking its last breath as the
venture
capitalists >> will soon squash its fins! Then it'll be Apple and
Google
to fill the >> void at least here in the United States! >> >>
Sincerely, >> Olusegun >> Denver, Colorado >> >> >> --- >>
This
email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>
https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >>
_______________________________________________ >> Any views or
opinions
presented in this email are solely those of the >> author and do not
necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >> >> For membership
options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/ >>
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subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/ >>
listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at >>
http://lists.window-eyes.com/ private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> >>
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opinions
presented in this email are solely those of the >> author and do not
necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >> >> For membership
options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/ >>
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subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/ >>
listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at >>
http://lists.window-eyes.com/ private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >
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presented in this email are solely those of the > author and do not
necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options,
visit >
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com/skyt%40shaw.ca.
For subscription options, visit >
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visit >
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For subscription options, visit >
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