Richard,
I use both JOSM and Potlatch. Each has its own strengths and would be
missed if it were to disappear. Equally, each could (and I'm sure
will) be improved. I'm not sure what Cloudmade's motivation is. As a
commercial company are they looking to make money from their new
editor? Or are they intending to present it to the OSM community as a
replacement for Potlatch?
On the question of ActionScript: I haven't used it (or Flash) but I
have done quite a bit of JavaScript and a whole lot of Java
programming. I don't know what the ActionScript 1 experience is like
but I find using JavaScript like driving in fog (difficult to know
where to go or where you went wrong) and would use Java every time.
If the ActionScript 1/3 relationship is anything like JavaScript/Java
I would jump ship at the earliest opportunity (and if Steve & Nick
will give you some of their VC cash to do it, all the better!).
I'm sure you have tremendous respect from OSM people and will have
plenty of support. I know how I would feel in your place and I know
from experience that it is likely to look totally different when it
all settles out. Potlatch works fine for now and from what you say no-
one has even started coding another Flash editor, so why not take
some time out as you suggest and let the dust settle. I bet if you
rebuilt Potlatch from the bottom up, using a better language, it
would be all that any of us could ask for.
elvin ibbotson
From: Richard Fairhurst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 1 May 2008 18:35:59 BDT
To: [email protected], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [OSM-talk] The future of Potlatch
[warning - long ponderous e-mail follows!]
Hi all,
A fairly weighty issue concerning the future of Potlatch has
arisen, and I'm completely baffled as to what to do - so I thought
I'd "ask the community" for thoughts and advice.
CloudMade (Steve and Nick's VC-funded company set up to
commercialise OSM data, www.cloudmade.com) wants to commission a
new online Flash editor for OSM. It would, I believe, probably be
written by developers from Stamen Design (www.stamen.com): some of
you will remember that Stamen's Tom Carden wrote OSM's early Java
editing applet, and they've also written a slippy map in Flash
called Modest Maps.
As you can imagine, this has taken me aback a bit.
As I understand it, their main issue is a technical one. Potlatch
is written in ActionScript 1, which is the same language as
JavaScript, but for Flash. The latest version is ActionScript 3,
which is much more like Java for Flash. The end user doesn't notice
a difference, but the programming style is very different.
CloudMade believes this is holding back the development of OSM:
that if the editor were written in the latest version of the
language, more Flash designers would come to work on it, resulting
in a better editor. Steve cites OSM's move from pure Ruby to Ruby
on Rails as an example of how a contemporary language encourages
more people to contribute. And they're also worried that if I were
run over by a bus then no-one would be able to speak ActionScript 1
and maintain Potlatch.
I'm not so sure. I think people are beginning to contribute code to
Potlatch; that as essentially JavaScript it's approachable enough;
and that the problems of attracting developers is symptomatic of
core OSM in general (as per http://trac.openstreetmap.org/log/sites/
rails_port).
I hope that Potlatch, as something maintained by an active
community participant _for_ the community, has demonstrated a
pretty rapid rate of improvement anyway. It's meant to be small and
compact, of course, not a a bells-and-whistles editor like JOSM:
nonetheless, in the last few months, for example: it's become the
only editor yet to offer revert/history, gained very good relations
support, background layers, flexible GPX import, etc. And there's a
lot of stuff on the way, mostly focusing on usability - from a
generic 'undo' and pop-up help panel to a new, super-user-friendly
tagging panel with draggable POI icons and things like that. It's
got faults, everything has, but it's come a long way in the last
year. For what it's worth I think it's the best thing I've ever coded.
For most purposes AS3 probably is a better language - except for
the fairly major proviso there's no open-source player even in
development. Indeed, if I were starting all over again I'd probably
do it in AS3, and in a couple of years I may well migrate Potlatch
to AS3 (or 4, or whatever) anyway. But right now it's more
important to spend time improving usability for mappers, given that
- like most people here - I do have a full-time job which isn't OSM
(which isn't computer-related at all, in fact) and consequently
time is not unlimited.
So I really don't know what to do.
Part of me thinks that the most important thing is that Potlatch is
still available and users are offered the choice. Part of me
thinks, well, if there's going to be a new Flash editor, there's no
point in me doing any development on Potlatch from today forward.
Part of me wants to say "well, screw you" and walk away. And part
of me wants to take CloudMade up on its OSM Grants scheme (http://
blog.cloudmade.com/) and say, ok then, I'll announce a medium-term
feature freeze, take a few weeks' holiday, learn AS3 and recode it
for a large amount of $$$. I'm utterly stumped and would welcome
suggestions.
Thanks for reading. :)
cheers
Richard
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
