On 10/02/2015 23:38, colliar wrote:
... I am fed up with ...
... at this point it's probably worth mentioning that we've been here
before:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-August/thread.html#67854
Unfortunately, experience suggests that there's relatively little that a
discussion on on the "talk" mailing list is going to be able to do
here. There are essentially two sides to the argument - at one extreme
new mappers "should never be able to break data" (and if they can't edit
at all because they can't understand what they need to do, tough) and at
the other new mappers "must have everything complicated hidden from
them" (and if some complicated OSM structure breaks, tough). Obviously
you're not at one extreme and the iD developers aren't at the other, but
there _is_ a difference of opinion here that it's not easy to
reconcile. If you want new mappers, you have to actually allow them to map.
If you've got specific examples of things that new users get wrong
consistently (and even better if you can understand what they've done
wrong and why) then I suspect that it would really help would be to
raise an issue on Github about it, or add to an existing one if one
already exists.
* iD making it way to easy to delete objects but not offering an option
to undelete them (is there any history information at all ?)
Whilst I'm in no way a fan of the iD user interface, even I had no
problems finding the "undo" button. I don't think that new mappers tend
not to find it either, since an answer to the common question "what do I
do if I get a conflict" is "undo back past the problem", and new mappers
haven't said (on the help site or on IRC) "how do I undo"?
* simply combining ways and merge nodes without any validation or
warning about conflicts in tags or problems with relations
What might help here is to get details from the new mapper concerned of
how they felt that they needed to merge nodes or ways. The "merge"
operation is fairly visually obvious when it happens; what's not so
obvious is that the resulting merged node with semicolon-separated tag
values isn't particularly useful in OSM.
There are a couple of "merge" Github issues; it may be that they already
describe the problem that you are referring to here.
* not telling the user about the importance of all tags, even unknown to
the software and allowing user to communicate with user of the last
change of the object
I suspect that this comes down to the "two sides to the argument"
mentioned above - the idea is that new mappers shouldn't have to worry
about "all tags" (or indeed, where possible, tags at all).
Any plans of supporting lanes-tagging-system ? Otherwise there will be
even more complains in the future.
This sounds like https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/387 to me.
That's probably the best place to explain what you'd want the end result
of a "new mapper knowing about turn lanes" would be.
Is there anyone taking care of mistake made by iD users and documenting
the most common ones to either better explain how to avoid them and/or
fix the software ?
Back in 2013 I did have a look, and came up with this:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-August/068018.html
Since then the "Thing X changed to thing Y" problem has been much
diminished by the fix for iD issue 542. "POI added without a main tag"
is still pretty common, and "unexpected deletions" are rarer than the
were (perhaps also because of the iD 542 fix).
The initial "who made what sort of error" analysis was in
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-August/067936.html ,
and note that in there iD new users made statistically fewer serious
errors than P2 ones (or, on a very low sample size, JOSM users). I
don't have the numbers, but based on a gut feel since 2013 I'd say that
currently the editor for which the highest proportion of new users are
going to cause _widespread_ problems is probably JOSM.
... So far, I try to keep calm and rather save my changes and upload them
later after solving conflicts instead of starting an edit war by
reverting or uploading older versions but I spend more time with
communication and investigating problems than actually mapping and
resolving notes and I still have quite some gpx tracks and photos from
over a year ago to map.
Supportive communication with new users is really important, so thanks
for taking the time to do this.
I don't believe that OSM has an "iD users" problem; it has a "new
mappers" one - or more accurately, a "data far more complicated than it
needs to be" problem which means even experienced mappers can have
problems. For example, have a look at this help question and the ones
that it links to:
https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/40792/editing-large-multipolygons-in-josm
Those were asked by an experienced OSM mapper who usually edits in JOSM
- how's someone without an in-depth knowledge of how OSM data is
organised or any of the OSM editors supposed to manage? Similarly, how
are new mappers supposed to manage here
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/52.14720/5.09810 ?
Cheers,
Andy
(neither a developer nor even a regular user of iD, but someone who does
care about helping new OSM mappers get started by whatever means)
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