Hey everyone -- let's do stick to the topic at hand. My takeaways from the good
points on the discussion here from Frederik and Yuri.
* It's ok to have different points of view* Being respectful of each other is
important. Very important* Let's not make disagreements personal
Online communication is hard. We are missing all the context and cues from real
life. Let's make an extra effort to get beyond the inevitable miscommunications
when they crop up.
-Mikel
* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
On Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 4:32:42 AM EST, Yuri Astrakhan
<yuriastrak...@gmail.com> wrote:
TLDR; Please read my previous email, and lets discuss the actual tool, its
capabilities, and how it can fit and add value to OSM ecosystem, while
minimizing potential negatives.
Frederik, I have offered to have a direct video conversation with you to better
understand your concerns, explain my goals, and bring it back into productive
scope, but no luck yet. I still hope you are more interested in resolving our
differences than having a public tribune. Lets not spend hours on emails, but
try to understand each other's concerns in a private conversation, without
involving the entire world. I am sure what you think I am trying to do is
substantially different from what I actually am trying to do, and my
understanding of your concerns is also different from your actual concerns.
If there is a large group of people who are trying to do something different
from your strongly held believes, it means they have a problem you might not be
aware about. In your example, "kick foreigners out" is a symptom of a problem -
possibly related to people's insecurity or lack of education. Vilifying them
and calling their ideas outrageous makes us feel righteous and united, but does
not solve the actual problem or changes what they think - it actually
exacerbates it, because both sides become more entrenched in their believes.
So yes, I do want to keep our conversation constructive (not positive!) -
understand concerns on all sides, and provide the most value to everyone
involved.
On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 2:57 AM, Frederik Ramm <frede...@remote.org> wrote:
Hi,
On 07.11.2017 07:29, Yuri Astrakhan wrote:
> Please keep discussion to constructive suggestions and ideas - they help
> us all move forward and reach agreement.
I have a general remark about statements like the above, that is not
related to your specific tool.
Statements like this are aimed at silencing opposition. But that is
neither fair, nor right, nor a good way for a community to move forward.
Opposition must be allowed, and people who are in opposition must not be
cast as "negative" (="bad").
Just imagine if someone suggested something outrageous ("Let's deport
all foreigners from or village") and then if someone says "no", they are
told: "Please keep discussion to constructive suggestions and ideas".
("If you have a better idea on how to get rid of foreigners, we're all
ears!")
There are many ideas that are broken beyond repair, where the basic
tenets are already so wrong that no constructive suggestion can ever
make it good. Rejecting such ideas is good, and a valuable contribution.
Please don't try to silence opposing voices by limiting discussion to
"constructive suggestions".
As I said, this is not aimed specifically at you; I think the last time
I said it was in a discussion about a tree import where the importers
asked critics to simply take their energy elsewhere instead of being
"negative" about the import.
Bye
Frederik
--
Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
______________________________ _________________
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.or g/listinfo/talk
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
