I am a developer. I should not be expected to learn Psychology 101 to improve OpenStreetMap.
Funny you should say that...I had to take Psychology 101 for my CS degree. I see why now. On Nov 21, 2017 12:02 PM, "Ilya Zverev" <i...@zverev.info> wrote: > Christoph Hormann wrote: > > Oh come on. I've been a mapper since 2010, I've hosted dozens of > > > events, I've written many articles and tools, some of which you might > > > have used, I'm on the Board currently, and still my proposals and > > > pull requests fail again and again, because there is no trust in > > > OpenStreetMap. There is nothing you can to to build up trust. Your > > > ideas will never get acceptance, it's just nitpicking and "unwritten > > > rules" all over. > > I hope you are aware that with this you deny everyone who has ever > voiced critique on any of your proposals and pull requests to have a > competent opinion on the topic in question. > > I am not speaking about my proposals and pull requests here. I am > highlighting a bigger issue that I see again and again. There is a core > group made of people from UK and German-speaking countries, and everyone > else. You will never become a part of the first group, not by writing > software or articles, not by being elected anywhere, not by anything. You > either have been in OSM in 2006 or not. You, Christoph, is not perceived as > a part of that group. Which means you get to experience "this situation > from both sides". Most of us do. Most people from the core group don't even > see the problem and will deny any claims. > > This problem manifests itself in many small ways: one more nitpicking > comment on your pull request, one more opposing comment on a proposal, one > more vote on their Board ballot instead of yours. Everything they do is > visible all over OSM. No matter what you do, it will be visible only in > your local community. That is what the #craftmapper problem is, not a > simple "do not import, go out and map". If they become irritated and leave, > we will lose everything: servers, access to code, representation, > organization. I know only one "craftmapper" who left — and more and more I > am starting to think that was for the worse, contrary to mine and everyone > else's opinions three years ago. > > You can mask the issue by saying "you have to be humble and listen to > others more and understand there is always somebody who know better", but > with that, you kill any trace of motivation to effect change in > OpenStreetMap. Because people who know better will not try new things — > they are worried that things we already have will break. The whole core > services group (people who maintain code and servers) have been working in > the life-support mode for years. Any change should conform to all the > current policies of OSM, which virtually say "no changes". Any proposal > should not contradict any of existing wiki pages, especially if existing > wiki pages contradict each other. > > Trust is allowing other people to touch and possibly break what you love. > We don't have it in the OSM. OSM is not Wikipedia, we don't have a "be > bold" rule. As you explain, we have "be humble and listen to others" rule. > Feels very similar to what women currently are fighting with in the third > wave. > > > The key to solving this kind of problem is respectful and considerate > communication, caring about each other's opinions and reasoning - and above > all patience. People are always more likely to accept and support change if > they come to realize the need for it themselves, at their own pace. > > I am a developer. I should not be expected to learn Psychology 101 to > improve OpenStreetMap. What are you effectively saying is that you can push > changes only by being an expert in social studies. If only such experts > wrote pull requests. What we do need is more management standing between > old and new developers — but that would imply more spending money on > people, and we don't want to spend money on people, just on hardware. > > > And a rejected idea does not necessarily need to be considered failure. > It is an opportunity to talk to the people who have rejected it, > re-evaluating your assumptions and motives and maybe develop a better > solution (or let others do that when they recognize the need). I have seen > lots of examples where a failed attempt at something created the impulse > for a better and successful solution. > > I don't care about failure of my proposals and pull requests. I care about > OSM being an active, maintained, growing, ever-changing project. I believe > I will see that — but I'd prefer it in 5 years, not in 50. > > Ilya > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk >
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