Very well stated, Colin. I agree that "independent verifiability" is at the heart of OTG and what we mean to distill from it as crucially important and a tenet of OSM that we can all agree upon (well, I hope so, anyway).
By explicitly stating that John Random Public can "consult the source" (freely, in all senses) to determine "what is" even (or especially) if something is NOT on-the-ground, we actually DO largely encompass many of the exceptions of "but I can't SEE it on the ground." We may have more work to do to be more explicit, but this goes a long way: thank you! SteveA > On Feb 8, 2020, at 9:42 AM, Colin Smale <colin.sm...@xs4all.nl> wrote: > > On 2020-02-08 18:03, stevea wrote: > >> See, "the on the ground rule," to the best of my ability to determine it (an >> exception is your opinion as you explicitly express here, and that's part of >> the problem with it), isn't clearly defined and it needs the elasticity of >> such ad hoc exceptions. It doesn't say (explicitly, anywhere, except in >> your exception) "we ask people there and look at books, other maps, >> Wikipedia, travel books, organizations...if the name is used in reality." >> You do (here, as an "exception," by way of clarifying your understanding of >> OTG) but if all of that is true, OSM should say so: formally and as fully >> as possible. >> > The most important aspect of the "on the ground" rule is that things are > independently verifiable, i.e. given the evidence, anybody would come to the > same conclusion. Physical evidence is obviously very useful - for example, > either a highway is present, or it is not. But other sources, provided they > are freely accessible, can also provide facts that are sufficiently > verifiable. In the case of the US-CA border, I guess the treaty or whatever > is publicly accessible, so there can be no arguments about where the border > is in a legal sense. Of course not all boundaries are fully specified in > treaties, but I suspect this one is. > > So I suggest the "On The Ground" rule should be replaced by a requirement for > independent verifiability; our traditional definition of OTG is sufficient > but not necessary for compliance. > > Independent viability means (to me) a random member of the public, with no > special privileges, and without payment, and at any time, should be able to > "consult the source". > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk _______________________________________________ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
