>>> It really comes across as nothing more than rationalization to abuse the space, overuse ones fair share of the available space and blame any problems it causes on others (or perhaps just deny that it causes any). <<< You should really find the person who's saying all these things, and take it up with them. ;) ;) I wrote pretty carefully to avoid specifically these kinds of misunderstandings, but I guess it wasn't sufficient. I'll try harder next time. By the way, how does one overuse ones fair share of the available space? I thought the *definition* of my fair share was the space in which I could exercise freedom without bothering others. Did you mean exceed?
At the milonga I describe, there were no signs of conflict between the outer-ronda dancers and those on the inside who were not at that point in a defined lane. Those who wanted the density of the outer ronda got what they wanted and preferred, given that the alternative was freely available to them as well as to others. People's wants were clearly stated by their choices, visible to all, for everyone to take into account in their navigation, and alterable at any time, form one millisecond to the next. That's where your glutton analogy breaks down, entertaining as it is - I may use a space now for a half-second, then when I give it up, it's available again - but in your analogy, the canapés are gone for good, aren't they?. >>> What *I* see... "At most milongas (not just traditional ones), I see more vigorously moving dances (not just younger ones, but generally those less able to control their energy or direct it inwards) disregarding the available space because they felt constrained dancing in the ronda. <<<< Im sure youve seen what you describe. As others have pointed out many times, rude and clueless people are everywhere, but it's of limited usefulness to claim that they constitute a "style". At the milongas I refer to, I watched people using the space differently without conflict. I didn't say that conflict is impossible between dancers who use the space differently. Yes, there are unskilled dancers in all our tango lives - do you think I'm defending their lack of skill? I'd have thought you'd have perceived my "implication" that they should go to practicas to "get better". I DID speculate that OTHERS might call something "nuevo", because, for example, of a different way of using space. But that's for others to clarify. I guess you're saying that YOU are one of the people who would make that association with what you call "nuevo", and I fully accept your right to do so. >>>> ...But if I were a nuevo "campista" (whatever nuevo means ... different post), I would not appreciate "my" style being associated with bad or inconsiderate navigation skills. <<<< Then maybe YOU shouldn't make that association, so "they" won't be offended. ;) ;) But you raise an interesting topic - WHERE are the nuevo "campistas", anyway? Why can they not be found leaping to their own defense on this list? In these discussions, "nuevo" seems to be used only to characterize "other people's dancing". Once again, the dancers I am referring to as "good high-level dancers" (and just to clarify, it is their heartbreakingly memorable SOCIAL dancing I am talking about, even though many of them are talented and compelling tango performers) do NOT tend to use "nuevo" to describe what they are doing. Doesn't it seem odd that this "argument" has only one side? To me this suggests an underlying conceptual confusion which creates a lot of heat without shedding much light. Some claim that we all know what nuevo is so theres my question: since we all know what a nuevo dancer is, is there ANYONE out there in Tango-L land willing to proudly state that they are a dyed-in-the-wool nuevo dancer in the way that everyone hypothetically understands? >>> Ironically, even though the "Ron vs. Brian" debates seem to put the two of them on opposite extremes of, well, something (still trying to figure out what exactly :-)) <<< I suggest that your perception of Ron and me as being on opposite extremes of a vague undefined something derives from the fact that, to quote Mr. Spock: ...it would be impossible to discuss the subject without a common frame of reference. From my perspective, Ron and I are still engaged in establishing a common frame of reference. Once he and I establish THAT, we may or may not find ourselves on opposite extremes of some issue. I still think the mixed-mode event idea might solve some of his difficulties as Ive come to understand them from his posts. >>>> (Ron says so in so many words, Brian more subtly, and unintentionally, by advocating and admiring a type of floorcraft that he associates with nuevo that I would consider inconsiderate and hence bad floorcraft). <<<< Huh? Advocating and admiring a type of floorcraft? You mean freely using your share of available space without encroaching on anyone elses space? Again, whats inconsiderate about that? But I WILL humbly admit to being an admirer and advocate of good, high-level tango dancing. I admire dancers whose musicality, connection, vocabulary, and considerate spatial awareness leave me in awestruck gasps of artistic appreciation as I watch them. I love dancing with partners whose dynamic range, flexibility, emotional availability, skill, training and talent allows the two of us to maximize the expressive relationship potential of our fleeting moments on the floor together. When I'm with a dancer like that, knowing what's possible with such a partner, sure, I want to fully explore with her what's available in my share of the space without encroaching on anyone elses space. And if that space decreases as the Milonga gets more crowded (which did NOT happen in the Canning example I described) and the "open middle" disappears, well, the principle still holds in the now-smaller space, and we'll find tango happiness in a different way in the more dense environment. And if that's when YOU show up, after putting your excellent restaurant to bed, and you end up dancing next to us, maybe you'll realize we may not be on such opposite extremes after all ;) All the best, Brian Dunn Dance of the Heart www.danceoftheheart.com "Building A Better World, One Tango at a Time" _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
