We are starting to move towards Eclipse where Spindle will be an option (it has already migrated our app to Tapestry 2.2), but old habits die hard - we still edit the files by hand...
R ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Miskell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 8:44 AM Subject: Re: [Tapestry-developer] tapestry learning curve > This intrigued me, so I had a poke through vlib. I couldn't find the code > you were mentioning (that checked the properties to see what type of page > it was). I searched for validate, and found AdminPage.java and > Protected.java, neither of which mentioned properties. This is with > 2.2rc1. A quick hint perhaps? > > Craig > > On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > I think documentation will eventually address the OO > > issues (vs. scripting issues) that overwhelm new users. > > > > BTW, the <property> tag is used to store meta data about > > pages, components, etc. I think that's what you need. > > I use it in Vlib to mark pages as "admin", "normal" > > or "logged-in" (i.e., declartively controlling what you > > can and can't see). The validate() method reads the > > property and may throw a PageRedirectException if the > > the user doesn't match the page. > > > > > > -- > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > http://tapestry.sf.net > > > I didn't read my mail on this list for a minute so I missed the flame war... > > > Here's my two cents. > > > > > > Is Tapestry hard to learn? > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > YES. But all frameworks are hard to learn. > > > > > > I spent a couple of weeks trying different frameworks. After reading > > > up on a bunch, I gave both Barracuda and Tapestry a try. Barracuda had > > > a longer learning curve, largely because it was not as easy to get up > > > and running out of the box. It took me a week to figure out how to do > > > what I needed to do with Tapestry, after that I could build my whole > > > application very quickly. > > > > > > We had a PHP guy on staff at the time who learned JSP/Struts while here > > > (JSP/Struts learning curve seemed to be on the order of months, not > > > easy to pick up but now there are book I understand). After more than > > > a month with Tapestry, he still didn't really get it. I take this as > > > evidence that it is hard to shift from a scripty type system to Tapestry, > > > but JSP/Struts is no piece of cake either. > > > > > > I think the solution is better documentation, and more importantly > > > simpler examples - a cookbook type approach. This may be impossible > > > given Tapestry's rate of development since new features are coming > > > out so quickly. There's not a lot of motivation to write good > > > ducmentation when you know it has a shelf-life of minus five > > > minutes (already obsolete by the time you write it). > > > > > > Is Tapestry cumbersome once you've grokked it? > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > Sort of. IMO, Tapestry makes hard things easy and easy > > > things hard. > > > > > > You get used to creating the .html, .page, and .java > > > files but I find I'm often typing stuff that the framework could > > > figure out for me. Something on the lines of anonymous components > > > would be nice (for me). For instance, I don't think you > > > should ever have to declare an Insert component - you should > > > be able to specify a property-path in the <span> tag and > > > just display the stuff. I agree with others that this opens > > > up a Pandora's box which may lead to putting scripting in > > > the HTML again. Maybe best to keep the lid on that - there's > > > already a lot of players in that field. > > > > > > The consensus on this list seems to be, Spindle is the solution > > > to the drudgery aspect of Tapestry. > > > I'm not too comfortable with that line of thinking. > > > Hiding a cumbersome development process behind great tools > > > is more the Microsoft approach and it's expensive to maintain. > > > If we're saying you need Spindle to make Tapestry usable, then > > > we're saying you need to use Eclipse too. Switching IDEs is > > > a biggish investment for a developer to make. I've given Eclipse a > > > serious try (3 months) and IMO it's just not that great an IDE. > > > Also, Geoff has a hard time keeping up with new Tapestry versions > > > and new Eclipse versions at the same time - he has a double coupling > > > there which is not fun. I've never been able to use Spindle so far > > > because either I needed features from a newer release of Tapestry > > > than Spindle supported, or there were bugs in Spindle or Eclipse > > > that prevented my use of it. Right now I can't even run Eclipse on > > > my linux box because the 2.0 stream depends on a new version of > > > the GTK and I need to install at least a dozen RPMS to solve that! > > > > > > OTOH, I've found developing for Tapestry to be not _that_ painful > > > without Spindle. IDEs are starting to come out with good XML > > > editors (the early access release of Intellij IDEA does, anyway). > > > A DTD-aware XML editor makes developing for Tapestry _much_ > > > easier. Maybe Tapestry should try to optimize for this time of > > > environment: java IDEs with good XML support. Then you don't > > > need plugins for Eclipse, IDEA, JBuilder, Forte, NetBeans, > > > (emacs!,) ... > > > > > > <aside> > > > Something that would be nice would be the capability to set > > > some static parameters on your Page classes in the .jwc files. > > > I basically have an EditProfilePage and a ListProfilesPage. These pages > > > need to be have a couple of things set on the - the EJB that > > > they are using, the type of profile that they are managing. > > > For each .jwc I need to create a new subclass of one of > > > these pages. All the subclass does is sets these two string > > > parameters. I'd like to do that in the .jwc and not need the > > > subclass. This would make for a more complex caching algorithm for > > > the pages. > > > </aside> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek > > Welcome to geek heaven. > > http://thinkgeek.com/sf > > _______________________________________________ > > Tapestry-developer mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tapestry-developer > > > > Craig Miskell > Programmer, Black Albatross, Otago University, New Zealand > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GCS d- s+:- a-->? C++++(++)$ ULXH+++$>++++ P+>++++ L++$>++++$ E--- W+++$ > N+ K? w--- !O M-- V? PS--- PE Y t++ 5 X+++ R-- tv+ b+>+++ DI++++ D+ G+ e++ > h--- r+++ y+++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek > Welcome to geek heaven. > http://thinkgeek.com/sf > _______________________________________________ > Tapestry-developer mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tapestry-developer > ------------------------------------------------------- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf _______________________________________________ Tapestry-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tapestry-developer
