As smart as HLS is, he wasn't the first to apply MVC techniques to the web. From what I read in TIA, he was substantially influenced by WebObjects, which came out in the mid-1990s (yes, over a decade ago) and was the first web framework (that I know of) to provide MVC, when he created Tapestry. Of course, Tapestry is open source and WebObjects isn't (even though WO is now "free").
/dev/mrg HLS/etc: Please correct me if I'm wrong -- that was just the impression I got from TIA. -----Original Message----- From: Jacob Hookom [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:42 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Choosing Tapestry Don't get me wrong, HLS is a really smart guy for being the first to come up with Tapestry and applying some of the Swing/Desktop concepts to something that works on the web. Unfortunately, as Java is such a commodity market, other frameworks will pop up that build off of Tapestry and other ideas; and HLS has been doing a great job of continuing to drive innovation. -- Jacob >> A more plausible case is many different UIs, designed differently to >> fit their medium, sharing the same back end. JSF won't help you with >> that any more than any other framework. > > Are you sure about that one? JSF opens up a horizontal market for > vendors and > open source developers such that there's a much higher degree of re- > use and > collaboration allowed in the request stack. Yes, I am sure. What I'm skeptical about is whether components built on the JSF model will make good rich GUI apps. The reason one writes a Swing app is to take advantage of exactly the sorts of things that JSF abstracts away (e.g. a fully asynchronous event model -- and please don't try to tell me that JSF has one). I have yet to be convinced that JSF can actually be used to build a Swing application that doesn't feel like a usability hoax. I am probably ignorant and completely off-base, but discussion isn't likely to convince me. What's needed is some examples that prove me wrong. Show me an awesome rich GUI app with a tidy codebase written with JSF, and I'll be convinced. >> In short, none of us have a crystal ball that you don't. > > My eight-ball tells me otherwise. So I noticed! You are clearly a JSF True Believer. And to your credit, Facelets are clearly thinking about the developer usability issues that currently make JSF cumbersome to work with. I'm not a true believer in JSF, Tapestry, or any other existing web framework, and I don't spend much time looking into 8-balls. But on a practical note, it's worth noting that just a few weeks ago, already knowing Struts & JSP, I spent four or five days experimenting with JSF, found it cumbersome and unsatisfying, tried Tapestry instead, liked it, and chose it for my current project. And even though the skills I'm acquiring won't help me build telnet applications, I still somehow manage to sleep soundly at night. Cheers, Paul -- Jacob Hookom - Minneapolis -------------------------- http://hookom.blogspot.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
