On 13. juli 2014, at 19:39, Fred Baker (fred) <[email protected]> wrote:

> 
> On Jul 13, 2014, at 1:16 AM, Michael Welzl <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On 12. juli 2014, at 21:12, Fred Baker (fred) <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jul 12, 2014, at 12:47 AM, Michael Welzl <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> As for Structured Streams, it's a nice paper but I never saw how this is 
>>>> much different from SCTP... 
>>> 
>>> Is that a bad thing?
>> 
>> For the paper perhaps, in terms of innovation, as it doesn't talk much about 
>> SCTP IIRC…
> 
> OK. There are at least two ways one can approach this kind of technology: 
> from the perspective of requirements, and from the perspective of innovation. 
> A problem I have with academic papers is that they often innovate for 
> innovation’s sake; they want desperately to create something novel, and will 
> often say repeatedly that whatever their innovation is is novel, as if saying 
> it frequently makes it so. My question is not whether it is novel, unless the 
> novelty represents and actual improvement. My question is whether it meets 
> the requirements.
> 
> In this case, we have a mechanism that carries data in IP datagrams. The 
> datagrams fundamentally carry one of two kinds of content: messages that are 
> exchanged between communicating peers, such as a BGP exchange might, and 
> streams of data that might carry on interminably, such as an interactive 
> exchange or an A/V application might. A stream must be delivered in sequence; 
> messages might accept delivery out of sequence, or even unreliability. In 
> between, the transport turns application data into IP datagrams and back into 
> application data.
> 
> The way the transport distinguishes between messages and streams, if it does 
> at all, is its designer’s call. But to say that the needs of two classes of 
> applications are irrelevant because one can be created out of the other - 
> which is the model that TCP used, and the model Sequenced packet used, and 
> the model you propose here - targets the transport at that class of 
> application. I think we’re far better off recognizing that there are multiple 
> kinds of applications, and making an API that works well with either or any 
> of them If that means that the API implements RFC 2126 internally to carry 
> messages over a stream transport, so be it. If it means that the transport 
> internally carries chunks, as SCTP does, and knows whether they are intended 
> to be streams or messages, so be it. But making it an application layer 
> problem doesn’t come across to me as having looked at it from the perspective 
> of the requirements of the application layer.

I agree with all of that (and have a feeling that you misunderstood me  :-)   ).

Cheers,
Michael

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