Hi Brett

My argument is not that "you" have to anything, or that "sociologists" must
anything. You misunderstood by reading far too many incorrect assumptions
into the few sentences I wrote. 

I simply attempted to state that values play a role in regulating human
behavior and activity, that scientists generally have reasons for their work
that are in part associated with values, and that sociology as a discipline
began for a reason that involved values.

Robert

Robert J. Hironimus-Wendt, Ph.D.
Sociology and Anthropology
Western Illinois University
1 University Circle
Macomb, IL 61455-1390
phone: (309) 298-1081
fax: (309) 298-1857
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

"Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, 
  in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, 
  at all the times you can, to all the people you can, 
as long as ever you can." -- John Wesley 


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Brett Magill
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 1:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: TEACHSOC: Re: Values in Sociology


So, just to clarify, your argument is that, to be a
sociologist one must have a social justice
orientation?  As I see it, you error in two ways in
your argument.  First, you confuse the science of
sociology with its application.  Second, you take as
fact the assumption that sociology must be used for
good, not evil just because that is how it has tended
to be used in the past.

Though none will be satisfied with any definition of
sociology proposed, I will venture to say that it is a
discipline that makes an effort to understand things
social.  Structures, culture, interactions, beliefs
and values, and their mutual influences.

One can attempt to understand "the social" and how it
works without attempting to do anything ameliorative. 
This is still sociology.  Moreover, one could use
sociological knowledge to increase injustice.  This is
still sociology.  The distinction of course is between
applied and basic sociological research.  It is the
difference between science and technology.  Physicists
study the mechanical principles of or physical
universe and engineers turn those concepts into
practical applications.  Some make our lives better,
like medical technologies, and some have the potential
for great harm to human life, like nuclear weapons.  

There is no doubt that sociologists tend toward social
justice and liberal ideals.  This is, however, not a
defining element of sociology.  Many others share
these ideals.  The ACLU certainly does, but it is by
no stretch of the imagination sociological in
orientation.  They do not make sociological arguments,
rather legal ones to support justice.  Moreover, I
venture to guess there are more than a few rogue
sociologists out there who do not share in this
"social justice" orientation.

The suggestion that sociology is defined by some
specific ideological orientation does not stand up to
critical examination.  We, as sociologists, have
values.  Our science should not.  If we let our values
influence our science, we are no more than demagogues,
advancing our own positions by hiding behind the thin
veil of social sciences.     

--- Robert Hironimus-Wendt
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi Folks
> 
>  
> 
> I tend to side with John on the issue of values. 
> 
>  
> 
> Sciences are always value driven. Those who perform
> them desire outcomes
> that are viewed as important, helpful, essential,
> necessary, etc. Biology,
> Chemistry, Physics, Psychology, Sociology, etc., are
> all disciplines, not
> tools. SPSS is a tool akin to a hammer. But the
> hammer does not define
> carpentry, any more than the survey defines
> sociology.
> 
>  
> 
> Sociology as developed in the U.S. was premised upon
> a social justice
> orientation (e.g. The Chicago School folks, Jane
> Addams, Du Bois, etc.).
> Subsequently, some American sociologists from 1940
> to 1970 tried to suggest
> that sciences were divorced of morality (e.g.,
> divorced of one form of
> reason), and since sociology is a science, it most
> denounce this form of
> reason. Ironically, biologists do not waste time
> with such matters, nor do
> chemists. They simply ply their trade for the
> purpose of making life better.
> 
>  
> 
> On a similar note, I have never perceived sociology
> as being depressing. I
> view it as liberating. 
> 
>  
> 
> A good weekend to all
> 
> Robert
> 
>  
> 
> Robert J. Hironimus-Wendt, Ph.D.
> Sociology and Anthropology
> Western Illinois University
> 1 University Circle
> Macomb, IL 61455-1390
> phone: (309) 298-1081
> fax: (309) 298-1857
> email:  <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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