texascavers Digest 27 May 2014 15:00:25 -0000 Issue 1987
Topics (messages 23890 through 23895):
Re: [SWR] Background on the FOIA request to BLM
23890 by: Julia Germany
Re: [SWR] Ringing stones
23891 by: dirtdoc.comcast.net
23892 by: Pete Lindsley
23893 by: Aimee Beveridge
23894 by: dirtdoc.comcast.net
the skeleton in water-filled pit in Mexico
23895 by: Mixon Bill
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Louise!
Having worked for local and state government in two countries (Texas and East
Germany), and for multiple agencies, your feed back has been spot on as to how
to handle delicate and productive communications to these agencies. In my
opinion, you have never once suggested not exercising ones freedom of speech,
only provided excellent feedback on how to make exercising this right
productive. I have found these listservs to be hot buttons for those who have
knee jerk reactions, if not just being jerks in general. The original thread
about the FOIA should have been applauded and read thoroughly to realize that
the response to all of the valid FOIA requests will take a significant amount
of time. It's very unfortunate that others do not understand the process, and
did not find your professional insights valid. Contacting you personally with
harsh criticism is not warranted, justified or going to make a difference. I
appreciate you putting a stop to this thread and being willing to continue to
contribute your knowledge to the group on future topics.
Wishing you a peaceful rest of your holiday weekend. I look forward to your
professional and thoughtful future contributions.
- julia germany
- from julia's cell
> On May 25, 2014, at 19:13, Louise Power <power_lou...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> To all:
>
> Nobody is trying to abridge anyone's constitutional freedoms. Only to point
> out that there are ways of exercising them that are more productive than
> others. Email bombing and bullying are not productive ways of dealing with
> any executive. I'm done with this conversation. Nothing productive is being
> said at this point and I'm tired of being email bombed and bullied and I'm
> not even an excutive. I'm just a nice person who used to be a very active
> caver in the 60s and 70s. I no longer want to be the object of your whiney,
> "I'm being so abused," "I can do and say whatever I want" rants. Ask
> yourself, does anybody really care! According to your complaints, possibly
> not, and certainly not me any more. Let's find something else to talk about.
>
> Louise
>
> Subject: Re: [SWR] Background on the FOIA request to BLM
> From: pagan...@comcast.net
> Date: Sun, 25 May 2014 11:06:57 -0600
> CC: power_lou...@hotmail.com; s...@caver.net
> To: lobofl...@gmail.com
>
> Jeff and Louise,
> In reading your open discussion of your previous e mail below, I offer this,
> also keeping it open:
>
> This is amendment I of the US Constitution, part of the Bill of Rights:
>
> "Amendment I of the US Constitution:
> Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
> prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or
> of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
> petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
>
> The last three sentences are what it seems to be all about and beginning to
> happen here: freedom of speech or of the press, the right to send e mails as
> often as we like; the right to peaceably assemble-as at the regional or any
> other way we like; last and most important of all, the right to petition the
> Government for a redress of grievances. i.e. an FOIA regarding the policies
> of cave closure and WNS.
>
> As for anyone stating that "you don't have a clue", I again refer to the
> Constitution of the United States, especially the part about "to petition the
> Government for a redress of grievances. " It states nothing about the
> workload or anything else for whom the petition is directed.
>
> As in my previous e mail dated 05/24, which I now include in this discussion:
>
> "To set the record straight: Bullying, or being bullied, according to
> www.meriam-webster.com, is "to treat abusively, to affect by means of
> coercion, to use browbeating language or behavior".
>
> Filing a FOIA request, or having one or 10,000 individuals send respectful e
> mails to one or more BLM and or state officials is not bullying. To
> paraphrase Lynda Sanchez in a recent post, it is a beautiful part of this
> country- TO BE HEARD, whether in a town hall meeting, or as an individual
> participating in threads on the SWR list-or sending a respectful e mail
> request to a BLM or for that matter any government official-it is YOUR RIGHT.
> EXERCISING THAT RIGHT ALLOWS YOU TO KEEP THAT RIGHT.
>
> When policies, procedures, or laws are clearly unjust, there are ways in
> which to ask that they be rectified. When we as a people, or in this case as
> a community of cavers, allow ourselves to be administered to by BLM or ANY
> government administrator in ways we perceive to be unjust, and DO NOT stand
> up (respectfully) to be heard, we lose part of ourselves. We become less of a
> democracy. We become less of ourselves."
>
> FYI regarding respect:
> It is Mr. Jesse Juan, STATE DIRECTOR of the BLM.
> He has earned that title, and should be addressed as such, as should any
> government official e mailed to.
>
> Filing of the FOIA, and the sending of e mails to BLM and hopefully to State
> Officials, is democracy at its best. There should be never be any fear of
> doing so. " Nor should there be any hesitation either.
>
> Further, yes, keeping it civil is what it's all about. A person's workload
> and priorities, or what they have on their agenda, are irrelevant. How many e
> mails a government official gets regarding a petition for redress of
> grievances, is absolutely relevant. It is an indicator of the opinions and
> values, likes and dislikes of the people they serve in the position they
> occupy, in this case for those who use PUBLIC LANDS- for whom they set
> policy, and work for.
>
> Finally, as for "a better perspective": seems that that has already been
> taken care of-about 214 years ago (final state ratification of the US
> Constitution).
>
> An FOIA request, and respectful, relevant-to-the subject e mails, to
> key-policy Government and (hopefully) State officials seems to be the proper,
> finest, and very necessary mode of discourse-referring once again to the last
> words of Amendment I, . "to petition the Government for a redress of
> grievances."
>
> As has been stated, it is far time that this is done regarding the
> policies of the BLM regarding WNS and cave closures.
>
> Carl…...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On May 24, 2014, at 6:52 PM, Jeff B. wrote:
>
> Louise, we should keep this discussion civil and out in the open. Mr. Juen
> has many issues on his plate, but this particular issue has existed long
> enough to remove from the emergency set of procedures and brought to the
> fully prescribed requirements for restricting access along with rationale
> surrounded by reason and logic and not conjecture and fear.
>
> My clues:
> 5 U.S.C. § 552 - Freedom of Information Act
> 5 U.S.C. § 552b - Sunshine Act
>
> We are asking for respectful communication regarding this issue, and in no
> way intend to harass the director.
>
> -Jeff-
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 10:48 AM, Louise Power <power_lou...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> Jeff,
>
> Just what is it you think the State Director does? Do you think this is the
> only issue on his agenda? Seems like you don't have a clue. Get back to me
> when you have a better perspective.
> Louise
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> SWR mailing list
> s...@caver.net
> http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr
> _______________________________________________
> This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting comments, Peter. Brings back an unusual memory.
In the late 50's, when I was a student at RPI, I found myself touring Luray
Caverns. An old guy with a rubber mallet and a tuning fork was thumping around
in the cave. I wandered away from the tour and started talking to him. It
turned out that his helper had some sort family emergency and I ended up being
hired to assist him for most of a week. It was a very trial and error process.
He thumped around with his little rubber mallet until he found the exact tone
that he wanted. My job was to carefully mark the spot and label it as he
instructed me. He had a check-sheet with the list of notes, and a detailed
layout of the room so he could locate the right spot again. He was still at it
when I left, but was down to a few elusive notes that he was trying to find.
Yes, I have been back, and the results ARE impressive. I've always thought of
it as the original surround sound.
DirtDoc.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ken, have you considered that these magical stones could have come down from
the Roswell site?
- Pete ;-)
On May 26, 2014, at 8:10 AM, Ken Harrington wrote:
Peter,
Interesting! There is a pile of stones up in the area of Brantley Lake that
have a distinctive metallic ring to them when struck by something. They are
all rather small (less than 12") long and are not like anything else in the
area. I have been curious for some time as to what gave them the metallic tone
quality. Your reference to high heat makes me think they may have been brought
in from another area where there may have been some volcanic activity. And
then again it may be that they are just rocks and this e-mail will confirm for
all that I have rocks in my head.
Ken
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the
rain.
From: pjca...@gwi.net
Date: Sun, 25 May 2014 20:36:34 -0400
To: txcavem...@yahoo.com
CC: s...@caver.net; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [SWR] Ringing stones
Karen: I'm surprised no one else has offered an explanation as of yet. My
guess, in part because I am potter, is that it has to do with the crystalline
structure of the "stones". The reason I mention pottery is because many of my
pots, when they come out of the very high temperature firing in my propane
fired kiln (roughly 2350 F or cone 10 as the pyrometric cone number is called),
have a wonderful and sustained ring to them when I rap my fingers on the rim of
some pieces. Some can sustain that ring for half a minute or so. During the
firing when the clay body is vitrifying and melting the various ingredients
together into one another, a crystalline structure develops. Clay is basically
composed of silica, alumina and various oxides such as potassium, sodium,
lithium, calcium and a small handful of others that lower the melting
temperature of the silica and alumina components. When they interact at the
high temperature I fire to, that crystalline structure bonds all the
ingredients into a very tight, hard material, extremely resistant to chemical
attack. In general, the higher the firing temperature, the longer the ringing
sound will last. As such, stoneware and porcelain pottery tends to have the
better and longer lasting ringing sound than lower fired clay bodies such as
earthenware.
Obviously not all stones (and I am assuming you are including stalactites and
various other calcite formations in this category) are formed by heat reaction.
Plenty of them, such as calcite formations, occur through crystalline growth
without the application of heat. While those produced at higher temperatures
may be stronger on a molecular level, that doesn't mean that they won't produce
a ringing sound as a result of that crystalline growth. Plenty of stals have a
long and sustained ring to them.
There is also another factor involved in a prolonged ringing sound. In the
case of my pots, the most pronounced ringing comes from bowl shapes. A platter
may ring as well, but the longest and purest ringing tones come from bowl
shapes. Mugs don't ring at all, nor do plates, but the molecular structure of
the clay is essentially identical in all of them. The same could be said for
stalactites. Short, stubby stals don't do much more than just clunk when they
are rapped by a finger. Longer stals have a much greater resonance and it is
likely due to the longer length vs girth of the formation. Soda straws don't
ring, but a long stalactite certainly is much more likely to sustain a ring
than virtually any other formation.
This is certainly a very simplified version of why things ring and I hope that
other more knowledgable people will respond as well. This is based mostly on
empirical evidence from my own experience as a potter and a caver. Perhaps
someone from Luray Caverns should answer this question as they are the ones
with the "stalacpipe organ" which uses a keyboard driven hammer device attached
to various "tuned" stalactites throughout the cave. It's pretty impressive....
Peter Jones
<SITDCP Card 2010.tif>
On May 25, 2014, at 9:57 AM, Karen Perry wrote:
Does anyone know why some stones ring or have a musical quality?
Thanks,
Karen
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_______________________________________________
This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
_______________________________________________ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net
http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr_______________________________________________
This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
_______________________________________________
SWR mailing list
s...@caver.net
http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr
_______________________________________________
This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That is a fantastic story! I grew up going on school trips and family visits
to Luray Caverns. I adored hearing "Oh, Shenandoah" played there. It sent
chills down my spine. Very cool.
> On May 26, 2014, at 10:35 AM, dirt...@comcast.net wrote:
>
> Interesting comments, Peter. Brings back an unusual memory.
> In the late 50's, when I was a student at RPI, I found myself touring Luray
> Caverns. An old guy with a rubber mallet and a tuning fork was thumping
> around in the cave. I wandered away from the tour and started talking to
> him. It turned out that his helper had some sort family emergency and I
> ended up being hired to assist him for most of a week. It was a very trial
> and error process. He thumped around with his little rubber mallet until he
> found the exact tone that he wanted. My job was to carefully mark the spot
> and label it as he instructed me. He had a check-sheet with the list of
> notes, and a detailed layout of the room so he could locate the right spot
> again. He was still at it when I left, but was down to a few elusive notes
> that he was trying to find.
> Yes, I have been back, and the results ARE impressive. I've always thought
> of it as the original surround sound.
> DirtDoc.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was in on the rebuild job. They said it had been a great idea but it didn't
work right.
----- Original Message -----
From: "JAMES D EVATT" <nmca...@centurylink.net>
Cc: "2 - Dwight on COMCAST" <dirt...@comcast.net>
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2014 5:17:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: [SWR] Ringing stones
Doc,
When I was knee-high to a diamondback, my folks finally relented to my
badgering and took me to a commercial cave, my first underground adventure. I
was hooked, lined, and sinkered right then and there.
The cave was less than 100 miles from home, and mighty well-known even at that
time.
We lived in Towson Maryland. The year was 1950. I was 7 years old. The cave was
Caverns of Luray. We had to park in the triangular parking lot in the farthest
row from the concession building, even then. Waited over an hour for the tour.
They had, as I remember, only about 6 notes working right on the Stalactapipe
Organ.
Passed my 50 year point with NSS last month. Haven't got my pin yet but as busy
as they are in moving the headquarters, I'm not too worried.
Jim
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The on-line supplementary material for the article in Science on Naia,
the young girl whose skeleton was found in Hoyo Negro, a pit in the
Aktun Hu part of Sac Actun, Quintana Roo, is freely available at
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2014/05/14/344.6185.750.DC1/Chatters.SM.pdf
The actual article is not freely available, but the supplementary
material contains everything that was in the article and a lot more.
It is 55 pages in all, including figures and tables. Much of it is
gory "methods" details about age dating and DNA analysis, but the
first five pages are a good overview of the pit, and a couple of the
figures are maps.
Articles on Hoyo Negro appear in AMCS Activities Newsletters 33, 34,
and 35. The large bones in the front cover photo on number 34 are from
a gomphothere, an elephant-like extinct American animal. -- Mixon
----------------------------------------
Work is the curse of the drinking class.
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--- End Message ---
