texascavers Digest 7 Dec 2013 19:12:55 -0000 Issue 1894
Topics (messages 23127 through 23139):
Could you survive after falling 45 feet?
23127 by: Diana Tomchick
23128 by: John Greer
23129 by: Speleosteele.aol.com
23130 by: caverarch
23131 by: Bill Steele
23132 by: Jon Cradit
Linkedin related
23133 by: David
Wastewater Case Raises the Concept of Underground Trespassing - NYTimes.com
23134 by: Joe Ranzau
Re: election results
23135 by: Lyndon Tiu
Re: Original 'Not A Spelunker' Mugs for Sale...
23136 by: Brian Freyling
NSS Flyer
23137 by: Jacqueline Thomas
underground rights
23138 by: Mixon Bill
23139 by: Speleosteele.aol.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Listen to this fascinating Science Friday podcast and remember: if you spread
yourself out and fall flat into a specially designed mat, you'd probably live
but your organs would hurt.
http://www.npr.org/2013/11/29/247381666/at-streb-action-lab-dance-and-physics-collide
How is this related to caving? Anyone fall a long way in a cave? I've fallen
about 15 feet but landed on Bill Steele (and no, I didn't have the time to
spread myself out flat, Bill wasn't particularly designed to serve as a mat,
and the only thing seriously injured was my dignity).
Diana
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biophysics
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214A
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: [email protected]
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)
________________________________
UT Southwestern Medical Center
The future of medicine, today.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I once described a number of European caving accidents (for the old AMCS
Newsletter before it quit, and the ms was lost). One was a farmer in
southern France (as I recall) who fell 200' in an open pit to a flat dirt
floor. He broke both ankles, only, was rescued, went temporarily to the
hospital, and then back to farming.
This, of course, is an exceptional exception to the usual outcome.
John Greer
----- Original Message -----
From: "Diana Tomchick" <[email protected]>
To: "Cave Tex" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 11:52 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] Could you survive after falling 45 feet?
Listen to this fascinating Science Friday podcast and remember: if you
spread yourself out and fall flat into a specially designed mat, you'd
probably live but your organs would hurt.
http://www.npr.org/2013/11/29/247381666/at-streb-action-lab-dance-and-physics-collide
How is this related to caving? Anyone fall a long way in a cave? I've fallen
about 15 feet but landed on Bill Steele (and no, I didn't have the time to
spread myself out flat, Bill wasn't particularly designed to serve as a mat,
and the only thing seriously injured was my dignity).
Diana
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I fell 25 feet one time in an Indiana cave when I was climbing unbelayed
on a cable ladder and it broke. Four of us had gone down the ladder, gone
caving way back in the cave for many hours (Parker's Pit), and when we got
back to the ladder one caver climbed up it first and reached the top safely.
I was second and it broke on me just as I got to the top. I fell through
midair the whole way and remember seeing my light shine on the wall as I
fell. I hit real hard on a sloping mud bank and my chest slammed into the
floor. It knocked the wind out of me, I sprained my ankle, but other than that
I
was unhurt.
As far as Diana landing on me as she says below, I have a different
version of that incident. My version is that I was watching her downclimb from
below and as she fell I had a split second to either step out of the way or
get involved. I got involved, and liking Jackie Chan movies, and having
watched many of them, I kicked in Jackie Chan-like lightening action,
operating
in the millisecond, and flipped her around in midair so she didn't land on
her head but instead landed on her rump. There were eye witnesses.
Bill Steele
In a message dated 12/6/2013 12:53:10 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
Listen to this fascinating Science Friday podcast and remember: if you
spread yourself out and fall flat into a specially designed mat, you'd
probably live but your organs would hurt.
http://www.npr.org/2013/11/29/247381666/at-streb-action-lab-dance-and-physic
s-collide
How is this related to caving? Anyone fall a long way in a cave? I've
fallen about 15 feet but landed on Bill Steele (and no, I didn't have the time
to spread myself out flat, Bill wasn't particularly designed to serve as a
mat, and the only thing seriously injured was my dignity).
Diana
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biophysics
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214A
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: [email protected]
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)
________________________________
UT Southwestern Medical Center
The future of medicine, today.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We've always suspected you have super powers, Bill.
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: Speleosteele <[email protected]>
To: Texascavers <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 2:37 pm
Subject: Fwd: [Texascavers] Could you survive after falling 45 feet?
I fell 25 feet one time in an Indiana cave when I was climbing unbelayed on a
cable ladder and it broke. Four of us had gone down the ladder, gone caving way
back in the cave for many hours (Parker's Pit), and when we got back to the
ladder one caver climbed up it first and reached the top safely. I was second
and it broke on me just as I got to the top. I fell through midair the whole
way and remember seeing my light shine on the wall as I fell. I hit real hard
on a sloping mud bank and my chest slammed into the floor. It knocked the wind
out of me, I sprained my ankle, but other than that I was unhurt.
As far as Diana landing on me as she says below, I have a different version of
that incident. My version is that I was watching her downclimb from below and
as she fell I had a split second to either step out of the way or get involved.
I got involved, and liking Jackie Chan movies, and having watched many of them,
I kicked in Jackie Chan-like lightening action, operating in the millisecond,
and flipped her around in midair so she didn't land on her head but instead
landed on her rump. There were eye witnesses.
Bill Steele
In a message dated 12/6/2013 12:53:10 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
Listen to this fascinating Science Friday podcast and remember: if you
spread yourself out and fall flat into a specially designed mat, you'd
probably live but your organs would hurt.
http://www.npr.org/2013/11/29/247381666/at-streb-action-lab-dance-and-physics-collide
How is this related to caving? Anyone fall a long way in a cave? I've
fallen about 15 feet but landed on Bill Steele (and no, I didn't have the
time to spread myself out flat, Bill wasn't particularly designed to serve
as a mat, and the only thing seriously injured was my dignity).
Diana
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biophysics
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214A
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: [email protected]
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)
________________________________
UT Southwestern Medical Center
The future of medicine, today.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nothing super about it, thanks. Just the influence of watching Jackie Chan
movies.
Bill
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 6, 2013, at 2:58 PM, caverarch <[email protected]> wrote:
> We've always suspected you have super powers, Bill.
>
> Roger
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Speleosteele <[email protected]>
> To: Texascavers <[email protected]>
> Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2013 2:37 pm
> Subject: Fwd: [Texascavers] Could you survive after falling 45 feet?
>
> I fell 25 feet one time in an Indiana cave when I was climbing unbelayed on a
> cable ladder and it broke. Four of us had gone down the ladder, gone caving
> way back in the cave for many hours (Parker's Pit), and when we got back to
> the ladder one caver climbed up it first and reached the top safely. I was
> second and it broke on me just as I got to the top. I fell through midair the
> whole way and remember seeing my light shine on the wall as I fell. I hit
> real hard on a sloping mud bank and my chest slammed into the floor. It
> knocked the wind out of me, I sprained my ankle, but other than that I was
> unhurt.
>
> As far as Diana landing on me as she says below, I have a different version
> of that incident. My version is that I was watching her downclimb from below
> and as she fell I had a split second to either step out of the way or get
> involved. I got involved, and liking Jackie Chan movies, and having watched
> many of them, I kicked in Jackie Chan-like lightening action, operating in
> the millisecond, and flipped her around in midair so she didn't land on her
> head but instead landed on her rump. There were eye witnesses.
>
> Bill Steele
>
> In a message dated 12/6/2013 12:53:10 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> [email protected] writes:
> Listen to this fascinating Science Friday podcast and remember: if you spread
> yourself out and fall flat into a specially designed mat, you'd probably live
> but your organs would hurt.
>
> http://www.npr.org/2013/11/29/247381666/at-streb-action-lab-dance-and-physics-collide
>
> How is this related to caving? Anyone fall a long way in a cave? I've fallen
> about 15 feet but landed on Bill Steele (and no, I didn't have the time to
> spread myself out flat, Bill wasn't particularly designed to serve as a mat,
> and the only thing seriously injured was my dignity).
>
> Diana
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Diana R. Tomchick
> Professor
> University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
> Department of Biophysics
> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
> Rm. ND10.214A
> Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
> Email: [email protected]
> 214-645-6383 (phone)
> 214-645-6353 (fax)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> UT Southwestern Medical Center
> The future of medicine, today.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I took a wilderness emergency medical class the doctor said what kills
most people that take a fall is the sudden stop. No joke. He said it causes
the internal organs, which are fluid filled, to rupture similar to water
balloons hitting a wall. Oh yeah, there are broken bones but it's the internal
bleeding what you have to look for. Sometimes it won't show up for hours. The
victim is bleeding out internally. There are times the ruptures can coagulate
and the bleeding will stop and they wonder why they are passing blood later.
But I'm sure there are some doctors out there that can speak to this issue much
better.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Greer [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 2:25 PM
To: Cave Tex
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Could you survive after falling 45 feet?
I once described a number of European caving accidents (for the old AMCS
Newsletter before it quit, and the ms was lost). One was a farmer in
southern France (as I recall) who fell 200' in an open pit to a flat dirt
floor. He broke both ankles, only, was rescued, went temporarily to the
hospital, and then back to farming.
This, of course, is an exceptional exception to the usual outcome.
John Greer
----- Original Message -----
From: "Diana Tomchick" <[email protected]>
To: "Cave Tex" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 11:52 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] Could you survive after falling 45 feet?
Listen to this fascinating Science Friday podcast and remember: if you
spread yourself out and fall flat into a specially designed mat, you'd
probably live but your organs would hurt.
http://www.npr.org/2013/11/29/247381666/at-streb-action-lab-dance-and-physics-collide
How is this related to caving? Anyone fall a long way in a cave? I've fallen
about 15 feet but landed on Bill Steele (and no, I didn't have the time to
spread myself out flat, Bill wasn't particularly designed to serve as a mat,
and the only thing seriously injured was my dignity).
Diana
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Linkedin suggested I connect with Rod Goke just now.
Hey, Rod, here is a toast to you. Cheers.
I wonder if the internet of the future will do such bizarre things.
And even more weird, is that he never would have joined Linkedin, at
least not with his real name.
David Locklear
P.S.
To those of you who are tired of my rants, comments etc. I am about
to go on a long hiatus from CaveTex, so no need for you to get upset again.
I might even go caving, or at least venture into the twilight zone, and very
likely in the Sierra Madres.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/06/us/wastewater-case-raises-the-concept-of-underground-trespassing.html?hpw&rref=science
Wastewater Case Raises the Concept of Underground Trespassing
By JIM MALEWITZ
Published: December 5, 2013
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REPRINTS
A case involving the disposal of industrial wastewater pits two interests that
are dear to many Texans against each other: oil and gas resources versus
private property rights.
Expanded coverage of Texas is produced by The Texas Tribune, a nonprofit news
organization. To join the conversation about this article, go to
texastribune.org.
Connect With Us on Twitter
Follow@NYTNational for breaking news and headlines.
Twitter List: Reporters and Editors
A decision by the state’s highest civil court could have major implications for
both. The Texas Supreme Court is scheduled to hear arguments on Jan. 7 in a
dispute between a company that operates injection wells in Liberty County and a
nearby rice farm that says wastewater from those wells has migrated into a
saltwater aquifer below its land. It calls the migration trespassing, for which
it should be compensated. Among several smaller questions, the court will weigh
a broad one: Just how far below the earth’s surface do property lines extend?
“This is the classic battle between the two quintessential values that are in
direct conflict with each other,” said Matthew J. Festa, a professor at the
South Texas College of Law. “On a lot of different levels, this case could make
some new law.”
This is not the first time oil and gas interests have clashed with landowners
in Texas. State courts have weighed in on several such showdowns in recent
years, including eminent domain cases involving land seized to build pipelines.
But the court has yet to consider the idea of underground trespassing.
The dispute, which has reached the high court once before, has drawn the oil
and gas industry’s attention.
The well in question is classified as Class I and used for nonhazardous
industrial waste. It is not one of the 50,000 Class II waste wells that
drillers typically use. But lower courts’ opinions have drawn no distinction
between the wells, stirring concerns that a ruling in F.P.L. Farming’s favor
would harm production.
“Because the ability to produce oil and gas is inextricably tied to the
availability of injection wells,” the Texas Oil and Gas Association says in a
brief, “a new common law cause of action that threatens operation of injection
wells likely threatens oil and gas production.”
In 1997, Environmental Processing Services finished drilling an injection well
about 400 feet from F.P.L. Farming’s land, which the farm contested early on.
Since then, the company has injected more than 100 million gallons of
wastewater.
Bob Kent, a former Texas environmental regulator and F.P.L. Farming’s expert
witness, testified that the waste plume had probably traveled across the
property lines, basing those conclusions on a formula widely used by state and
federal regulators.
Representatives of the farm say they worry that the waste, which includes the
flammable liquid acetone, will contaminate its groundwater and erode the value
of its property. Though the water is too salty to drink, those on the farm’s
side contend that it is valuable because desalination technology could make it
drinkable.
The well operator and its supporters, meanwhile, say the waste will make the
groundwater no more polluted than it is naturally. And they say it is a moot
point because recognizing a subsurface trespassing argument is nearly
unprecedented. The appellate court in Beaumont is the only court to have done
so.
The suit is flying under the radar of property rights advocates. No group has
filed a brief in support of the rice farm, but the Texas Farm Bureau, which
typically supports landowners in such disputes, said it was looking at the case
after recently learning of its return to court. (The Texas Farm Bureau is a
corporate sponsor of The Texas Tribune.)
The group supported F.P.L. Farming the last time the case reached the Supreme
Court. That was in 2011, when the justices remanded the case to the lower
courts after considering various arguments.
“We think they own the property down to the center of the earth,” said Regan
Beck, assistant general counsel for the Farm Bureau, adding, “You have a taking
without compensation.”
[email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Denise Prendergast <https://www.facebook.com/denise.prendergast>: Thanks,
I am sure I will be involved in some way. Saj
Zappitello<https://www.facebook.com/saj.zappitello>has threatened to
rope me into some kind of crazy volunteer position.
"
On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:40 PM, David <[email protected]> wrote:
> The Board would greatly benefit with Denise involved.
>
> I am not a TCMA member, so I can't make a motion, but if she wants to be
> on the Board, then someone should appoint her.
>
> David Locklear
>
--
Lyndon Tiu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Below is the announcement about my new 'Not A Spelunker' mugs that I sent
out to the DC area caving groups. Please feel free to pass it along to any
of the caving organizations in your area. If you Texas folks can get three
or more mug orders delivered to the same location, I'll offer you free
shipping!
*If you're sick of explaining to your non-caving acquaintances why you
don't want to be called a spelunker*. . this mug can do it for you!
Hi everyone!
It's me, Keely. As some of you may know, I enjoy drawing caving-themed
cartoons. So this year, I decided I'd try my hand at making and
selling *caving
cartoon mugs *(see pics below). I picked the 'caver/spelunker' theme
because I thought it would be a fun challenge to illustrate people acting
the fool underground - and also because I think the mugs could prove
themselves useful explanation tools. *The mugs are double-sided, showing
the contrast between the cavers depicted on one side of the mug and the
spelunkers on the other.*
*They come in two sizes:*
11oz Regular Mugs for *$10*
15oz Grande Mugs for *$12*
*You can order (and purchase!) them* *online through my website
<http://www.suburbangrotto.com/mugly.html>*, mail or email me the *attached
order form*, or even just *send me an informal email* telling me what you
want. They'll be available for *free pick-up at the DC Grotto banquet*,
and I can also arrange for pick-up at other local caving events and
locations in the DC area. Finally, I can do shipping ($4 for Regular mug,
$5 for Grande - if shipping multiple mugs, contact me and we can work out a
price). I had a lot of fun with these; I hope you enjoy them too. :-)
*Visit website <http://www.suburbangrotto.com/mugly.html> for images.*
The website again: www.suburbangrotto.com/mugly (make sure to get the
'mugly' part in or you'll be taken to my ecopsychology site!)
Happy holidays everyone - keep caving!
Cheers,
Keely
[email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
I've received a flyer from the NSS Bookstore. I know some of us do not have
newsletters and I think it missed any pre-Christmas Caver so I would like to
post it to this list.
I do not want to post it on the list without checking with everybody because it
will likely come through as an attachment of 323 KB.
Will that severely upset anyone for any reason? Jacqui
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There was a court case in Kentucky many years ago ('30s or '40s)
concerning a show cave that ran under a neighbor's property. In that
case it was determined that the owner of the surface owns to the
center of the earth. (Separation of mineral rights was not a question
in that case.) But that was just a local court in Kentucky and doesn't
have much standing in Texas. There are lots of exceptions to that
principle. For example, your well can suck water out from under a
neighbor's property without permission in Texas. Something closer to
parallel to the disposal-well question in Texas might be the rules
here about oil and gas resources. I don't know details, but I assume a
landowner cannot prevent an oil well on a neighbor's property on the
grounds that it will suck oil out from under his own, but no doubt
there are rules in place to assure he gets a cut. In the case of
disposal wells connected with oil and gas drilling or production,
something similar might be applicable. -- Mixon
----------------------------------------
Work is the curse of the drinking class.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: [email protected]
AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It was Indiana, Bill, and the case was Marengo Cave vs. Ross.
http://www.casebriefs.com/blog/law/property/property-law-keyed-to-cribbet/un
authorized-possession/marengo-cave-co-v-ross/
And on this timeline go to 1937:
http://www.tiki-toki.com/timeline/embed/33254/3861219897/#vars!date=1806-08-
17_08:23:17!
I actually studied it in a Business Law course in college, and subsequent
to that a friend of mine bought the cave (Gordon Smith).
Bill Steele
In a message dated 12/7/2013 12:48:39 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
There was a court case in Kentucky many years ago ('30s or '40s)
concerning a show cave that ran under a neighbor's property. In that
case it was determined that the owner of the surface owns to the
center of the earth. (Separation of mineral rights was not a question
in that case.) But that was just a local court in Kentucky and doesn't
have much standing in Texas. There are lots of exceptions to that
principle. For example, your well can suck water out from under a
neighbor's property without permission in Texas. Something closer to
parallel to the disposal-well question in Texas might be the rules
here about oil and gas resources. I don't know details, but I assume a
landowner cannot prevent an oil well on a neighbor's property on the
grounds that it will suck oil out from under his own, but no doubt
there are rules in place to assure he gets a cut. In the case of
disposal wells connected with oil and gas drilling or production,
something similar might be applicable. -- Mixon
----------------------------------------
Work is the curse of the drinking class.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: [email protected]
AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
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